Range/Practice vs. Hunting Loads

[azmntman]

Yep! Cuz when yer shooting at game ya dont feel it anyway (excitment factor ya know :grin: )

 

[Rifleman1776]

I had a buddy that shot TC maxi's and 120 grain loads of 2ffg. He could not hit anything with them bench or offhand (OH in the dirt 20 yards out ) the recoil screwed him up big time.

The cure for him was a case of 5000 rounds of unmentionable over a summer then light loads of 30 grains of 3fg and a round ball. We worked it up to 70 grains and same projectile. Cured his flinch and he shot a deer that first day.

Nice of you to help him. But, really, just teaching him that heavy loads do not kill any dedder would be the best start. OTOH, I do agree, a lot of shooting, with whatever, is a good education and fun.

 

[Jimbo47]

I use 80 grains of T7 with my Hornady GP bullet, and 60 grains of T7 with a PRB for hunting with my .54 caliber.
My loads are consistently accurate, and don't kill on both ends while practicing or hunting.

 

[Col. Batguano]

Shooting is shooting. In many ways, archery is as good as a firearm. Follow through is paramount with that, and obviously, noise isn't a factor, nor have I ever heard of someone getting the flinches from it either.

 

[azmntman]

nor have I ever heard of someone getting the flinches from it either.

Just you shoot in yer T-shirt w/o an arm guard a few shots and ya outta start flinchin :redface:

 

[Jimbo47]

Better known as "target panic!"

 

[coloradoclyde]

Years back, there was an article written in one of the big gun magazines about flinching...It stated that Noise was a bigger factor than recoil...and that when muffs and plugs were worn flinching was greatly reduced...

 

[azmntman]

and with flint or cap locks I would bet GOOD eye protection further reduces flinch. I'm guilty of allowing eye glasses to suffice too many times myself :redface:

 

[dsayer]

Years back, there was an article written in one of the big gun magazines about flinching...It stated that Noise was a bigger factor than recoil...and that when muffs and plugs were worn flinching was greatly reduced...

Interesting. I've honestly never thought of that.

 

[dsayer]

and with flint or cap locks I would bet GOOD eye protection further reduces flinch. I'm guilty of allowing eye glasses to suffice too many times myself :redface:

This ought to work...

Face shield

 

[Artificer]

Perhaps because of barrel harmonics I have two accurate loads for each of my rifles.

It is because of barrel harmonics and it definitely is a real thing. The vibration of the barrel travels in Waves. I can’t remember without looking it up if the most accurate loads come from powder charges that cause the bullet/ball to exit the barrel at the top or bottom of the waves, though.

Both my .45 Flint Rifle and Brown Bess carbine had accurate lower powder charges to shoot at targets from 25 to 100 yards. “Target Accuracy Loads” for the rifle used 42 ½ grains, 55 grains for the Brown Bess. Hunting loads were: for the Rifle 70 grains and 75 grains for the Brown Bess, both loads caused the bullet to exit the right points of the vibrational waves, for the type of shooting I was doing and what I wanted for each use.

Trigger time is what counts.

Light loads teach more about shooting than heavy loads.

Heavy loads can and may induce flinching, only light loads can cure it.

I had a buddy that shot TC maxi's and 120 grain loads of 2ffg. He could not hit anything with them bench or offhand (OH in the dirt 20 yards out ) the recoil screwed him up big time.

Shooting big loads thinking it's helping you shoot them better may be the wrong tactic.

Enjoy the flinches you get guys for they can be our own fault! :yakyak:

I’m sure you know this, but since you didn’t mention it; I will add that DRY FIRING is also an extremely valuable practice technique that one can normally do in one’s home. Dry Firing 5 ”“ 10 well aimed shots a day will get one MUCH better shooting (especially offhand) faster and easier than anything.

I fully agree that lighter Accuracy Charges and actually shooting more with the rifle/gun throughout the year, will keep one in much better shape for the Hunting Season. Shooting is a degradable skill, if not practiced either dry firing and/or actual firing throughout the year.

I also agree that one should do some shooting with full Hunting Charges VERY close to the time before hunting season. This is much more to confirm the rifle/gun still hits with that charge where you want it and in the environmental conditions close to what one will actually hunt in. Many people do not realize Points of Impact will change between a hot summer day and a cold winter day.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Oops, sorry, forgot something important if one is only going to shoot a few rounds each year before hunting.

Begin shooting the rifle/gun with a Clean/Dry Barrel. Then clean it back to that condition before every additional single shot. This simulates how your barrel will actually hit for the first shot during hunting out of a dry/clean barrel.

This MAY not be important on some guns/rifles, though, if the difference in accuracy is very small between cleaning after each shot and running a few shots between cleaning. The gun/rifle will "tell you" if it is important on your gun/rifle though.

Gus

 

[dsayer]

Great info Gus!
How in the world does one know if their bullets are leaving the barrel at the right point of the vibrational wave?

Also good idea about dry firing. I suspect one would want to protect the nipple or flint/frizzen in some way.

 

[Artificer]

Great info Gus!

Thank you, but thanks are also due to the two posters I quoted in the first post.

How in the world does one know if their bullets are leaving the barrel at the right point of the vibrational wave?

Most of us cannot, because we don't have the test equipment. However, the good news is you don't need to worry having the equipment and do it like they always used to do it.

For your Target/Plinking accuracy charge, begin with about 2/3 to 3/4 the number of grains of powder as the caliber. IOW, for a .45 caliber begin with 30 grains of powder and shoot groups with 5 grain increases and keep your targets. As you increase the powder, you may find that first load the most accurate with less powder, but you will normally see the groups get smaller as you increase the powder charge until it remains at the best group or begins to open the group wider.

IOW, the rifle might shoot OK at 30 grains, but shoot a little tighter group at 35 grains. Then when you increase the powder another 5 grains to 40 grains and the group gets tighter still, so you increase the powder another 5 grains to 45 grains. It might shoot tighter, or no change or even the group may open up larger. If there was no change in accuracy, then go back to 40 grains for the accuracy charge. (Be careful to measure the groups as accurately as you can, though, when determining there might or might not be a change. I always used a precision dial caliper to measure groups.) If the group opened up wider, then also go back to 40 grains as your charge. If the group got tighter at 45 grains, then try 50 grains, etc.

The old rule of thumb used to be a rifle/gun would shoot its best with a lighter Target Load at the same grains of powder as the caliber, IOW say 45 grains in a .45 caliber, but I have found that doesn’t work much of the time.

My old hand built Flint Rifle was/is truly unique/rare in that it shot best with a 42 ½ grain load and I have never seen nor heard of another rifle that was that temperamental. However, both a 40 grain load and a 45 grain load did not give the kind of accuracy I needed for target shooting. Loads higher and lower than that also did not work.

In those days, my personal standard of required target accuracy was the ball had to be capable of hitting a string at 25 yards where the string was held fairly tight vertically by a weight it suspended and hit that string on almost every shot. A very common target in those days was a string that suspended a small weight or the string was tied to a stake in the ground and the other end tied to a tree branch, this last was the hardest because the string was always at an angle and harder to hit than a “straight up and down” string. (Shooting at a string held taught at an angle and at 25 yards often defeated even the very best shots on the Primitive Range at the Spring and Fall National Championships at Friendship and I wasn’t that good in the last of the 1970’s when I used to compete there. )

I finally resorted to using a precision balance beam powder measure and shooting more groups to find that 42 ½ grain accuracy load. I always made up Pre Measured Powder charges in that charge weight and used them when allowed by the matches. For the matches that did not allow pre-measured charges as in Primitive Matches, I used a brass adjustable measure and epoxy glued the sliding scale so it came as close as possible to giving me that amount of powder. Then I only used that measure for that rifle, of course, and left it epoxy glued to that charge weight.

For a heavier Hunting Load, begin at 5 or 10 grains of powder more than the caliber. IOW for a .45 caliber rifle, begin at 50 to 55 grains of powder. Keep your targets and go up 5 grains at a time until you find the heavier charge where he rifle/gun shoot as good as the Lighter Target Load.

Also good idea about dry firing. I suspect one would want to protect the nipple or flint/frizzen in some way.

You are absolutely right. What is super important to the best dry firing is the Hammer on a Percussion Rifle/Gun falls and you hold it steady after it falls. On a Flint lock, the Cock (nowadays often called the hammer as well) falls and opens the frizzen and you hold it steady after that for a little bit. To do that, it does take some simple extra equipment.

For a Flintlock, it is easiest to do by cutting scrap wood into the shape of the same size flint that works best in your lock. BTW, this was commonly used by the British Army throughout the 18th century, so the idea is not new at all.

For a Percussion Rifle/Gun, I have found it best to use a piece of plastic tubing that fits fairly tight over the nipple. A piece of tubing about ¼ inch longer than the top of the nipple normally works well. Just be sure you inspect the nipple before shooting to ensure some of the tubing didn’t get smashed down into the vent hole of the nipple. Actually, I normally used a worn out nipple with the plastic tubing to dry fire and replaced it with the good nipple for live fire.

Gus

 

[dsayer]

Again, thank you for contributing to this thread (and the forum more broadly). Really good stuff. Loving the variety of approaches and opinions in this thread.

I've definitely always used the 5gr increments rule, but had never heard of the starting point being related to the caliber before this week. And I didn't know it had anything to do with vibrational waves or harmonics. Earlier I was reading a thread in the handguns section about a starting load for handguns being (I think) 1/2 the caliber as well. Far as I know, my father and I just started with a random number for hunting loads and worked up from there. :idunno:

And RE: dry firing. I was thinking the same thing about using a worn out nipple. I knew I had been saving them for something! I'll have to see what I can find for tubing or something else to soften the blow.

 

[Artificer]

You are most welcome. Good luck and remember:

"Shooter if for better groups you thirst, for Heaven's Sake load your powder first."

:haha:

Gus

 

[dsayer]

You are most welcome. Good luck and remember:

"Shooter if for better groups you thirst, for Heaven's Sake load your powder first."

:haha:

Gus

:haha: Truer words have never been spoken, eh, typed.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I know there are a lot of different ways to "skin a cat", but I look at range time as practice for hunting. So all of my rifles and smoothbores, have a single charger made for them..., that throws my hunting load for that rifle or gun. The only exception is my .40 which, if you can call it an "exception", shoots 30 grains for small game, but if I was to go after deer, I'd put a double charge down it to meet the legal requirements in my state.

LD

 

[Artificer]

Earlier I was reading a thread in the handguns section about a starting load for handguns being (I think) 1/2 the caliber as well. Far as I know, my father and I just started with a random number for hunting loads and worked up from there. :idunno:

Though I have personally owned a repro M1860 Army Colt and then an M1851 Navy Colt, I have to admit I always shot blank loads in them for re-enacting. However, many of the NSSA shooters informed me over the years they used between 15-17 grains of powder in the .36 cal. Navy's and 18-21 grains in the .44 cal. Army's, for their accuracy loads.

I did own a Harpers Ferry Flintlock Pistol and shot it live fire a few times, but the grip angle was so bad for me, that I don't remember the powder charge I used in it.

My very first ML'er was a pistol. It was a .44 cal. Percussion "Kentucky" style pistol I didn't have anyone to show me how it worked and never got very good accuracy out of it, so I don't remember what powder charge I used for it.

I also owned one of the Navy Arms .69 cal., smoothbore "Charleville" Pistols. Even though I have LARGE hands, that grip is so large I had to use both hands to shoot it at 25 yards. It was surprisingly accurate at that range with a 30 grain powder charge, though.

So from my limited personal experience and from what I have learned from others, most pistols shoot best with less than half the grains of powder than their calibers.

Gus