Rate of Twist

[Trailsend]

I would like to get a percussion rifle and shoot round balls. It is my understanding that you want a rifle with a slow rate of twist. What constitutes a slow rate of twist? 1-48 or does it need to be at least 1-60?

 

[maypo59]

I think 1 in 48 is considered a compromise twist. I have a .50 in 1-48, it shoots PRB just fine, and R.E.A.L.'s just fine, though a bit "left" of where the PRBS hit. (about 1 1/2 inches) It has adjustable hunting sights, and I just adjust the sights for whichever I am shooting. I have a couple slow twist .54's, have not tried anything but PRB's in them.

 

[galamb]

Even among barrel makers there is no "across the board" agreement on what is the best "slow twist".

In 50 cal Green Mountain uses 1:70, Rice is 1:66, Colerain is 1:56.

The rate of twist will somewhat restrict the "length" of the projectile that can be stabilized.

So while 1:70 may stabilize a round ball nicely, it could cause a longer (Maxi) to end up cartwheeling (in the extreme).

1:48 is often used for round balls and short conicals (maxi's and similar) but it is not really "perfect" for either.

Faster twists 1:32, 1:28 will not work very well at all with a round ball unless you keep the charge well below where you would want it for hunting - they are designed for long heavy conicals and plastic wrapped, copper plated thingy's better suited for a service revolver.

If you are "certain" that you will only want to shoot round balls, go with a slow twist. If you are not sure, try a 1:48 and decide for you "next rifle" what twist. And if you never want to shoot a round ball, go with a very fast twist..

 

[Trailsend]

So you can get accurate performance out of 1-48 twist with a round ball.

 

[Aran]

1-48" is fine for round ball imo. It's just a matter of how deep the rifling grooves are. You don't want too shallow grooves or it won't shoot PRB very well. I'd say at least 0.008" and deeper should be good, deeper being better.

Aran

 

[dave524]

What caliber????? If looking for the optimum twist for RB it depends on the caliber. 54's are best at 1-66 to 1-72 or thereabouts, 50's are good with 1-60 to 1-66 , 1-56 would be good for a 45 and a 36 is about optimum around 1-48. There is no universal round ball twist my friends.

 

[galamb]

So you can get accurate performance out of 1-48 twist with a round ball.

You can only get a subjective answer on that.

Ask a competitive target shooter and the answer will be NO.

Ask a hunter who hunts/plinks and the answer is YES.

Unless you are wanting to shoot conicals as well you will get better accuracy with a slower twist and deeper rifling.

Most "round ball" barrels from the major builders are in the 1:60-something twist rate and have .012 to .016" deep groves and most target shooters prefer square rifling over round bottom.

So you have to ask the question as how it will apply "to You".

How do YOU plan to use the rifle. Is a 2" group at 50 yards "good enough" or would you consider that so inaccurate that the rifle is "junk"???

 

[cynthialee]

from what I have gathered from my readings, is that the depth of the rifling is also important in this matter

 

[BrownBear]

...depth of the rifling....

Bingo. Lot of blarney written about 1:48 as a "compromise" twist, when in fact the big change that TC made for the use of conicals was going to really shallow rifling to ease bullet starting. With the shallow rifling I generally have to go to a lot tighter patch to get the accuracy I want with RBs, but the accuracy is there.

Why is the 1:48 not a compromise? Look into the twist rates used in historic rifles. The 1:48 was really common long before conicals were a gleam in anyone's eye. In fact 1:48 was the standard twist for the original Hawken rifles, as a matter of fact. They just had the deeper rifling for ideal patch use.

Here's an insight for you when picking a twist rate:

In my experience with a wide range of twist rates, there's a penalty for really slow twists. They don't handle light powder charges worth a poot. Most guys who own them have to shoot full snort charges to get any kind of accuracy at all.

I love the 1:48 twist (deep rifling of course) for my RB rifles, because they handle such a wide range of powder charges with great accuracy. I shoot a lot of loads in the 30-35 grain range for small game and plinking. Talk about powder savings and great accuracy for head shooting small targets, even in 50, 54, 58 and 62 calibers! Yet they're also tack drivers with heavy loads. How can you beat that?

 

[Rifleman1776]

1:48" twist is the most common in use and historically. The slower the twist the larger the charge needed to find the sweet spot (most accurate). My .54 cal. Jaeger with a 1:72 twist is something north of 100 gr. for best accuracy. Sadly it seldom gets used much anymore because of both uncomfortable recoil and excessive use of expensive black powder. You can't go wrong with the 1:48".

 

[stinkyfeet]

It also depends upon the caliber your shooting as well typically the smaller the caliber the faster the rifling rate is. Then again your using a lower charge on average as well. Example
Coletrain barrels are
36 caliber = 1-48 twist
40 Caliber = 1-48 twist
45 Caliber = 1-56 twist
50 caliber = 1-56 twist
54 caliber = 1-56 twist

Like others said some are 1-60, 1-66, 1-70, 1-72 twist then some companies like oregon barrels offer anything you want twist rate, type of rifling, depth or rifling. So whats the magic answer ** Whatever ** IDK :idunno:

 

[Trailsend]

So when you are looking at a rifle how do you determine how deep the rifling is?

 

[galamb]

So when you are looking at a rifle how do you determine how deep the rifling is?

Measure it with calipers. Not too many can tell the difference between .004, .008 and .012 by eye...

 

[Billnpatti]

When you are just looking at it, unless you have a pretty calibrated eyeball and can judge the various rifling depths (some gunsmiths can do it regularly) you will need an instrument to actually measure the depth. One of the best is one of the feeler gauges that are wires. Spark plug feeler gauges are often wire gauges but most of them are too thick for measuring rifling depth. You can find wire feeler gauges at places such as Harbor Freight or other places that sell machinest's tools. To measure the depth of the rifling, just place one of the wires in the groove and see if it is level with the top of the land. Keep trying until you find the wire feeler gauge that is the same as the depth of the groove in the rifling.

 

[Trailsend]

Is there any manufacturers that you are aware of that have the deeper rifling in the 1-48?

 

[stinkyfeet]

What caliber you looking for, how long of a barrel, and what gun will it be used for (patented breech, TC, Lyman, custom gun)

 

[excess650]

I'm thinking you'll need to contact Hoyt, Getz, Rayl, or some other small barrel maker for a deep 1-48".

 

[nkbj]

Not just twist versus caliber and depth but also the number of grooves, the width of the lands relative to the grooves, how smooth and consistent the bore reaming was... All characteristics make a difference, easy or difficult in how they work with each other.

 

[AZbpBurner]

I have several rifles in .50 and .54 cal with 1:48" twist rifling. All are tack drivers relative to the shooting I do. In fact, at the last trip to the range, I spent part of the day shooting at grapefruit sized balloons at the 100 yard berm. Occasionally I missed. It really upset another shooter who was dialing in his scoped hunting rifle, since I was just standing there plinking balloons with my .54 cal flintlock ... Lyman Deerstalker.

Apparently Mr. spendy rifle knew enough about black powder to be able to tell that the short barrel with an attached flint wasn't supposed to be that accurate. He could hit a balloon, too, but it took him 3 shots, even from a bench rest. I asked him if he planned to hunt deer from a bench, or if he could stand up and hit something. There were still 3 balloons standing when I left.

I do have a 1:60" rifle, and I can get better velocity with it, but accuracy isn't perceptibly better or worse than with my 1:48" barrels. On paper, any of the rifles are capable of one big raggedy hole in the center of the paper - if I take the time and pay attention.

You didn't mentioned if you were gonna build a rifle. If so, you may want to pay attention to all the hoopla about rifling depth, twist rate, and custom barrels.

Otherwise, if you just plan on buying your first rifle, take a look at what's on sale at the Forum Classified Ads. There are a bunch of 1:48" rifles, and also a 1:60" there, many at reasonable prices, and any of which will get you familiar with running a muzzleloader. And any of them will give you enough accuracy to keep up your interest while not draining your wallet. If you decide you like it, you will also get a better idea of what you want next, and there's where all this BS about custom barrel configurations begins to matter. Until then, get something - cheaper is better, and get out and make the most of the capability of your purchase. You'll discover that it is likely more capable of accuracy than you are. As you hone your skills, that may change, and you may someday grow to want something "better".

I was surprised at the accuracy of my Deerstalker Flint - from all the talk by those in-the-know, it's not supposed to be more than a utilitarian hunting rifle, and marginal at that. Apparently they spend more time talking than shooting.

Buy something cheap, and go shoot it. It needs dialing in to your preferences, so concentrate on first developing an accurate load. You can tune it more, later, by varying patch thickness to find optimum consistency in groups on paper.

You will be able to spend the rest of your life listening to all the tales about how much better a particular bullet lube is than another, but in general, anything of the classic tallow + beeswax, beeswax and olive oil or even spit, if you have enough, will work well. Concentrate on sight picture and rifle skills, and let the keyboard-types try to sell you on spiffy nipples, or a particular brand of caps. It really doesn't matter - at least not yet.

If you take your time, you can make just about any rifle perform to your expectations. The Mountain Men didn't have the luxury of whining about their barrel not working, or patch lube isn't any good. They either made what they had work, or starved.

You're not only not gonna starve, but if you have any modern rifles, you'll find you will be spending much less quality time with them, and more time burning black powder.

So. look here first: http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/pp-classifieds/showcat.php/cat/9

From around $150 to $400, they're all fine choices to get you started.

Whether .45,.50 or .54 caliber, all are capable if fine accuracy, and anyone shooting any of them will tell you about it.

 

[crockett]

Trailsend- I think you are starting to get too much information. Re-define for us what you want. If you are in a T/C price range? A more expensive price range? PRB for target but maybe a conical for hunting.