RE hardening a frizzen question

[Flintlock Whiskey]

I've started my project of overhauling my Pedersoli Kentucky. I would like to have the frizzen redone. Can someone recomend to me someone who knows what they are doing and would be willing to do it?
Thanks.

 

[TDM]

You mentioned in another post you had hang fire problems if I’m not mistaken. Is your current lock not sparking at all?

 

[Flintlock Whiskey]

You mentioned in another post you had hang fire problems if I’m not mistaken. Is your current lock not sparking at all?

It is, it's just weak. Different flints, making sure of the edge, doesn't matter. I concluded that changing out the whole lock might be a bit unnecessary. Before I go to the hassle and expense, I will either try to harden it myself or have it done by someone else. I was a bladesmith for some time so the process isn't unknown to me.

 

[TDM]

It is, it's just weak. Different flints, making sure of the edge, doesn't matter. I concluded that changing out the whole lock might be a bit unnecessary. Before I go to the hassle and expense, I will either try to harden it myself or have it done by someone else. I was a bladesmith for some time so the process isn't unknown to me.

Then you can re-harden your frizzen just like a blade. Heat it up to non magnetic and oil quench. There are also carbon paste you can apply to the face, but I have no experience with them. I have two Pedersoli flintlocks that operate well, but only after I went through them both and polished up the tumbler faces and sear. Even had to narrow the main spring on one cause it was a flint smasher. Polishing up anything that moves or touches really improves the lock performance. Haven’t had any frizzen problems but mine are older.

 

[kyron4]

I saw a video where a guy "re shoed" a frizzen by soldering on a piece of saw blade.

 

[Flintlock Whiskey]

Then you can re-harden your frizzen just like a blade. Heat it up to non magnetic and oil quench. There are also carbon paste you can apply to the face, but I have no experience with them. I have two Pedersoli flintlocks that operate well, but only after I went through them both and polished up the tumbler faces and sear. Even had to narrow the main spring on one cause it was a flint smasher. Polishing up anything that moves or touches really improves the lock performance. Haven’t had any frizzen problems but mine are older.

Brings me full circle as it were. Maybe I should try to find a person or company that could go through the whole lock and tune it.

 

[Flintlock Whiskey]

I saw a video where a guy "re shoed" a frizzen by soldering on a piece of saw blade.

I think I saw the same video. Sure is one way of extending the life of a frizzen.

 

[rich pierce]

Is the frizzen soft? How did you determine that the frizzen needs hardening, and is the main problem?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

It is, it's just weak. Different flints, making sure of the edge, doesn't matter. I concluded that changing out the whole lock might be a bit unnecessary. Before I go to the hassle and expense, I will either try to harden it myself or have it done by someone else. I was a bladesmith for some time so the process isn't unknown to me.

You may find that the frizzen was simply improperly hardened by Pedersoli. I've seen that several times, the face starts showing much deeper gouges than in the past, and sparks are few or none, and then a proper lock maker simply smoothed some of the gouges, and hardened the frizzen as he does for the American locks that he builds, and voila, back to normal. It seems that Pedersoli may be contracting out some of it's lock work, and the procedures used are not those that would harden the whole piece.

LD

 

[Grenadier1758]

Then you can re-harden your frizzen just like a blade. Heat it up to non magnetic and oil quench. There are also carbon paste you can apply to the face, but I have no experience with them. I have two Pedersoli flintlocks that operate well, but only after I went through them both and polished up the tumbler faces and sear. Even had to narrow the main spring on one cause it was a flint smasher. Polishing up anything that moves or touches really improves the lock performance. Haven’t had any frizzen problems but mine are older.

Once hardened, the frizzen will have to be tempered to restore the toughness. Heat to 375 degrees F in an oven for an hour and let cool.

Lots of further information can be found through the use of the Forum's search engine.

 

[jimairwin]

I've started my project of overhauling my Pedersoli Kentucky. I would like to have the frizzen redone. Can someone recomend to me someone who knows what they are doing and would be willing to do it?
Thanks.

I've done these. Use Kasenit & follow directions. Not rocket science.

 

[Flintlock Whiskey]

You may find that the frizzen was simply improperly hardened by Pedersoli. I've seen that several times, the face starts showing much deeper gouges than in the past, and sparks are few or none, and then a proper lock maker simply smoothed some of the gouges, and hardened the frizzen as he does for the American locks that he builds, and voila, back to normal. It seems that Pedersoli may be contracting out some of it's lock work, and the procedures used are not those that would harden the whole piece.

LD

As far as someone who can do this, can you recommend anyone? I prefer to keep it in the U.S.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Brad Emig of Cabin Creek.

 

[Flintlock Whiskey]

Brad Emig of Cabin Creek.

Thanks, I will shoot him a mail.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Brad Emig of Cabin Creek.

He beat me to it. I have one of Brad's PA Mountain Rifles, and have taken a bunch of deer with it.

LD

 

[LRB]

Then you can re-harden your frizzen just like a blade. Heat it up to non magnetic and oil quench. There are also carbon paste you can apply to the face, but I have no experience with them. I have two Pedersoli flintlocks that operate well, but only after I went through them both and polished up the tumbler faces and sear. Even had to narrow the main spring on one cause it was a flint smasher. Polishing up anything that moves or touches really improves the lock performance. Haven’t had any frizzen problems but mine are older.

Especially for blades but also in general, the practice of heating high carbon steel to simply reach non-magnetic and then quenching in oil to harden is a common misconception that just seems to continue on, despite scientific proof of incomplete hardening in most testing. Steel reaches non-magnetic at 1414°f. Ideally there is a much better chance of achieving a thorough proper hardening at 1475°f to 1500°f, depending on the steel in question. A reasonable path to take, sans a thermal controller, is to increase the red heat at non-magnetic by one shade of color and try to hold that increased color a moment or so before the quench. If you want to get a closer degree of accuracy on your heat, common table salt will melt at 1474°f. Not just any oil on hand is likely to do the best job of proper hardening. For the weekend home hobbyist the best oil for quenching simple steels such as, or similar to the common 10XX variety, would be canola oil warmed to about 125°f/130°f, unless a specific formulated commercial quench oil is available.

 

[Flintlock Whiskey]

Especially for blades but also in general, the practice of heating high carbon steel to simply reach non-magnetic and then quenching in oil to harden is a common misconception that just seems to continue on, despite scientific proof of incomplete hardening in most testing. Steel reaches non-magnetic at 1414°f. Ideally there is a much better chance of achieving a thorough proper hardening at 1475°f to 1500°f, depending on the steel in question. A reasonable path to take, sans a thermal controller, is to increase the red heat at non-magnetic by one shade of color and try to hold that increased color a moment or so before the quench. If you want to get a closer degree of accuracy on your heat, common table salt will melt at 1474°f. Not just any oil on hand is likely to do the best job of proper hardening. For the weekend home hobbyist the best oil for quenching simple steels such as, or similar to the common 10XX variety, would be canola oil warmed to about 125°f/130°f, unless a specific formulated commercial quench oil is available.

You definatly know what you are talking about. When I made knives for fun and profit, I had a kiln that I would heat blades to 1550 and "soak" them for 10 to 15 minutes to allow the crystal structure to "reset" for lack of a better term. I would quench in pre heated Parks heat treat oil, allow to cool and immediately temper at 450 for three hours. Guaranteed results. I suppose I would do the same process (I have a forced air forge now) without the tempering. My concern is how brittle will the frizzen be without the tempering. Obviously, there is alot of force being applied when the flint comes smashing down on it. Your thoughts?

 

[sturmkatze]

Brings me full circle as it were. Maybe I should try to find a person or company that could go through the whole lock and tune it.

That’s probably the best. The flintlock doctor advertises. I think they are here in PA.

 

[sturmkatze]

Brad Emig of Cabin Creek.

That’s who I meant

 

[LRB]

You definatly know what you are talking about. When I made knives for fun and profit, I had a kiln that I would heat blades to 1550 and "soak" them for 10 to 15 minutes to allow the crystal structure to "reset" for lack of a better term. I would quench in pre heated Parks heat treat oil, allow to cool and immediately temper at 450 for three hours. Guaranteed results. I suppose I would do the same process (I have a forced air forge now) without the tempering. My concern is how brittle will the frizzen be without the tempering. Obviously, there is alot of force being applied when the flint comes smashing down on it. Your thoughts?

If the frizzen is 1095, hardened but not tempered at all, it will break if you look at it wrong, assuming you got full or near full hardness in the quench. If are going to harden a 1095 frizzen your oil should be Parks #50, or canola oil. Being not a blade, but a frizzen, I would use the canola oil. A little pearlite will do no harm in a frizzen. Temper at 375°f. What steel and which Parks did you use on blades? Soaking a blade at quench temp allows more time for the carbon and iron to meld into a homogenous solution, but it can be over done, but more often under done, depending on the alloys involved. Such as 1095 which is little more than iron, carbon, and a spot of manganese is improved in 8 to 10 minutes at 475°. 01 contains carbon, chrome, vanadium, tungsten, and manganese and requires 20 minutes at that same temp. In order to be at its best. Both are hypereutectic steels, and really should not be taken much above 1475°f as a target quench temp. Typical, common, 1095 contains a very low amount of manganese which causes 1095 to require a very fast cooling quench in order to harden to a useable state for blades. .6 to .8 of one second to get below 900°f in order to not allow the steel to revert to a pearlite rich condition which is a much softer than desired condition ranging from less than desired to near useless as a blade. No oil will quench 1095 fast enough to prevent a small amount of pearlite formation to occur, but the two mentioned will do well enough to still make a good blade. As for frizzens, a little pearlite will go unnoticed. If ever full maximum hardness is ever a requirement, you will have to use warmed brine. Brine cools faster than plain water and is much safer as far as a quenchant cracking the steel is concerned.