Real Bullets VS Patch & Ball

[JimKok]

Hello you all I have a geat question can anyone answer why when I go to the range with my traditions deerhunter 50 cal I can hit the target in the black at 100 yards with a patch and ball. And I can't get even close with the real bullet I hit very high or there were a alot of shots I have no clue on were they are hitting. I tried amounts of grain measurements

 

[Alden]

Twist?

 

[Carl Fowler III]

Rate of twist benefits the PRB more so than the REAL bullet! But you don't mention group size with the PRB or the difference in weight between the 2 projectiles....move closer...like 25 yds and give it another go, this time checking for group and difference of the POI...then move to 50, 75, and finally to 100yds...this should tell the tale! :v

 

[ohio ramrod]

I have never had good results with the real bullets in a slow twist barrel. They work better in the fast twist, but I have only slow twists or smoothbores. :idunno:

 

[nkbj]

Hello you all I have a geat question can anyone answer why when I go to the range with my traditions deerhunter 50 cal I can hit the target in the black at 100 yards with a patch and ball. And I can't get even close with the real bullet I hit very high or there were a alot of shots I have no clue on were they are hitting. I tried amounts of grain measurements

Nope, I can't. It depends upon the individual rifle, the REAL mold, the casting metal, the lube, whether or not it needs over powder card or wad... there's just a lot of variables that make it tough to diagnose a problem without being there.

 

[Lonegun1894]

Start off much closer as has already been said. That will tell you what is going on, or at least where to start looking. Here is part of what will happen with any weapon, if it helps any. The heavier conical will maintain it's velocity better, even though it will start out slower if launched by the same powder charge. This means that the gun will have raised the barrel in recoil higher with the conical than the PRB due to the PRB exiting snnoer in the recoil cycle. What this translates to is that the conical will impact higher up close, and have a higher trajectory, even though it may have more energy further down range than the PRB due to the poor ballistic coefficient of the RB--but often times that extra power doesn't do you any good because you have o compensate more for the trajectory and are more likely to miss if you make a mistake. And this is all before you even get into rifling depth and twist, powder charges, lubes, and every other variation that may make all the difference, even in two seemingly identical rifles. Here is what I would recommend personally. Try both the conical and PRB to your hearts content, and then use whichever is more accurate for you. Personally, I use PRB in all mine because they work as well for my uses as any modern bullet (including conicals) ever has when fired out of any weapon, ML or modern, within it's effective range. The PRB also uses less powder to achieve the same or higher velocities as the conical, uses less lead, and due to this combination, also recoils less--all while working just as well. What's not to love?

 

[awebbersr]

As Alden says the barrel twist tells the story. A 1:66 twist is PRB only, a 1:48 twist or faster is needed for conical's. Put a thick patch on a jag and run it down all the way, mark the rod; pull up slowly and when mark is on the opposite side of the shaft it is 1/2 way out. Measure the length from the bore to the mark, and that is 1/2 your twist. If 33" then you have 1:66 twist. :v

 

[stinkyfeet]

Come on babbbbbbbbyyy and do the twist. In my best singing voices

 

[Billnpatti]

OOOOO! Owwww! Talk about fingernails on a chalkboard!!!!!! :rotf: :rotf:

 

[azmntman]

dogs still howling here..... :surrender:

 

[rodwha]

You may need a wad between the powder and conical.

I've been shooting my 1:48 twist, which is what I assume yours is as that's what they've been for the past few years, with a .490" PRB with 70-75 grns of various powders just to break it in.

I bought some 320 grn REALs just to try out, and the first was waaaaay left and hit the target paper sideways. I then tried a wad and the next two were nearly touching but lower (why I don't know) then my PRB with the same powder charge. The holes were round.

 

[Don Steele]

What was the "wad" you used..???
Thanks

 

[Spikebuck]

A 1:66 twist is PRB only,

I have had two slow twist barrels (1:65 and 1:66)that shot conicals very well out to 100 yards +. So slow twist barrels can shoot conicals well. In both cases my barrels were square groove rifling and relatively shallow. Neither barrel liked a solid based conical, like a TC Hunter, but worked extremely well with Buffalo Bullets or Hornady Great Plains Hunters. No wad required.

I think the hollow base was part of the key, expanding to seal the bore and better engage the rifling. Holes in targets at 100 yards were extremely crisp indicating no wobbling or tumbling in flight.

Both of these barrels also shot a PRB well. I could even use the same powder charge (90 gr 2F in 54 cal) and all I had to do was aim a tad higher at 100 yards. Groups with both were very similar.

So in addition to what others have said, I'd recommend trying a conical with a hollow base vs a solid one, if you haven't already. I also agree that after "playing" around with both PRB and Conical, use the one that groups best.

 

[mooman76]

HB bullets or minies are different as the weight is forward and that is probably why they shoot well in your slow twist barrel. I have a slow twist 58 that shoot minies pretty well or at least good enough for hunting.

 

[satx78247]

In many cases, the reason that hollow-based bullets are "hunting accurate" even out of very slow "twist barrels" is the same reason that a thrown dart seldom hits the target "feathers first".

As far as I know, the SOLE way to know how a particular bullet will function (with any load of powder &) out of a particular barrel is to TRY it.

yours, satx

 

[rodwha]

1/8" hard felt from Durofelt made from a punch I bought from Ohio Ramrod here.

These were dry with no lube.

 

[Don Steele]

Thank You. I'm currently having a difficult time getting anything that resembles a "Group" out of my 1:48 twist, original 50 cal. T/C Hawken bbl. with any of the commonly available conicals.
Over-powder wads seem to have helped others. I'll be looking at that option in more detail. Tried a couple yesterday...hasn't helped so far, but I'm not through yet. :hmm:

 

[jackpine]

I started ML via the modern route and having ample free lead and not liking the price of the modern components, got a REAL mold and made up several hundred bullets. I got fliers, key holers, and terrible accuracy. After burning untold cans of powder I found an over the powder wad that now allows me to get accuracy as well as with a PRB. Too much powder seemed to aggravate the situation, which also depended on twist rate. I have shot the .50 REAL in 1/24, 1/48, 1/32 and 1/66, all successfully depending on wad and powder level. Lot of dinking around.
For all the effort and powder invested, I would have been better off just going the PRB route in the slow twist rifles. I was just fooled into thinking they were outdated. When I shoot for fun, I use a PRB.

 

[rodwha]

Don,

If you don't have a wad punch for your caliber I highly recommend you get with Ohio Ramrod here on this forum. He is a retired machinist who makes several things including custom punches at a very good price.

You'll want a slightly over groove punch.

 

[satx78247]

PRB are far from outdated, though if you HUNT heavy/TOUGH/dangerous game animals you would likely be WAY BETTER OFF with conicals of a sort that "fly true" in your firearm.
(It's the difference in hitting someone with a tack-hammer versus a claw-hammer.)

Personally, I've never seen a ML rifle that won't shoot some sort of conical WELL, with a proper combination of powder and conical.

just my opinion, satx