Realistic accuracy expectations

[Barry Strickland]

I would love to do some bench rest shooting in a few matches a year, I enjoyed shooting matches when I was serious about it but it has been over 30 years since I've attended one. One problem is I don't know the rules for bench rest shooting so if someone knows them please pass them along. I'm mainly a hunter and I shoot most of my game under 50 yards where wind is not an issue, but I do know some about wind and also about using those wind flags.

Darkhorse, I just looked at last years Championship Program on bench rest matches. Here is a list and some information;
Benchrest matches are mostly unlimited weight of the rifle. Five shots with 45 minute relays.
Aggregate C, Flintlock Bench Championship. Three targets, two at 50 yards and one at 100 yards. Mix of open & any metallic sights.
Aggregate L, 100 Yard Bench Championship. Two targets at 100 yards. Any metallic sights, flintlock or percussion.
Aggregate M, Roundball Bench Championship. Flintlock or Percussion. Five targets. Two at 50 yards, two at 100 yards & one at 200 yards.
A mix of open and any metallic sights.
Aggregate V, Round Ball Bench/Any sight Championship. Three targets, one each at 50, 100 & 200 yards.
Aggregate SS, Light Bench Championship. 14 pound weight limit. Two at 50 yards and two at 100 yards, a mix of open and any metallic sights. This is one of
My favorites.
Match 132, Squirrel rifle, open sights, .40 cal limit, 10 pound limit. I always wanted to try this but never have got around to it.
There are other bench rest matches and rest matches of different types such as chunk gun, slug gun and Buffalo cross sticks which I used to have a passion
for years ago but my legs just won't get up and down that much any more.
I think most of the guys here on this forum would mostly be interested in the Primitive matches which are on the other side of the NMLRA grounds. They have an extensive match program which includes just about anything you can think of for fun and games. If you have not been there you should make an effort to go there at least once for a most memorable experience.
Bear

 

[Darkhorse]

Thanks Barry that helps. I've never made it to Friendship but I have shot in the SE Regionals many years ago. I took a 3rd place in the 50 yard offhand. That was my match back then but nerves were getting to me that day. My offhand bullseye shooting is pretty much over. I have a deteriorating joint disease in both shoulders, meaning I can only get one or two shots close to the target anymore out of 5 shots. So now I'm shooting bench rest more and more.
Due to aging eyes I shoot with a small, rear peep. I guess I really need to know what is provided. Do they provide a table? That's the main thing as I have most of what's needed.
Right now I'm loaded down with work but a local club puts on a Rondevouz every year and they also have bench matches so I've got someplace to start.

 

[Noah Hathorne]

Does anyone know the math when it comes to ballistic coefficients and MOA. I was wondering if a round ball can be calculated like say a 175 gr. .308 at 2700 fps. Generally you can predict that 1 MOA will hold so that at 1000 yds the group would be 10 inches. I know there are a lot of variables at play especially with a muzzle loader, however the data would be interesting. Will a round ball of a given size hold to whatever MOA and if so, out to what range?

 

[tenngun]

That’s a good question. In theory it should, in real world, a ball is still a pretty poor projectile. The farther it goes the more exposed it is to random puffs of wind and variations in air density.
No matter how hard yo kick it at the muzzle it will be subsonic at hundred yards and in the mid 300 FPS at three hundred.
Big hmmmm.

 

[hanshi]

It has been very rare that I've killed deer farther than 50 yards with the average being more like 20 to 30 yards. But I have done it a few times and at extended ranges. When I shoot I absolutely forbid my prb from reacting to wind, distance or gravity. But do they listen? Nooooo.....

 

[Barry Strickland]

Due to aging eyes I shoot with a small, rear peep. I guess I really need to know what is provided. Do they provide a table?

Darkhorse, there are loading benches that run the full length of the shooting sheds. There are a few shooting benches for anyone who does not have one. They are light enough to be moved to any firing position that is available.

When I shoot I absolutely forbid my prb from reacting to wind, distance or gravity. But do they listen? Nooooo.....

Yes, I thoroughly understand the problem, I have even tried prayer . . . Bear

 

[Darkhorse]

Does anyone know the math when it comes to ballistic coefficients and MOA. I was wondering if a round ball can be calculated like say a 175 gr. .308 at 2700 fps. Generally you can predict that 1 MOA will hold so that at 1000 yds the group would be 10 inches. I know there are a lot of variables at play especially with a muzzle loader, however the data would be interesting. Will a round ball of a given size hold to whatever MOA and if so, out to what range?

Noah, A .535 round ball has a ballistic coefficient of .075 Given a muzzle velocity of 1600 fps. and sighted in dead on at the muzzle the ball will strike -10.00" low at 100 yards.
A ball fired at 300 yards will strike -166.14" low at 300 yards with a MV of 586 FPS
Ballistic tables can be found in Lyman's printing of the BlackPowder Handbook. Mine is the 1975 printing.
However, I can only assume to understand your question. My best answer is, if the rifle is loaded exactly the same, powder, patch and ball. And is aimed exactly the same. And benched exactly the same. And fired exactly the same with no outside conditions affecting the flight of the ball, then it should hold MOA.

 

[Darkhorse]

Darkhorse, there are loading benches that run the full length of the shooting sheds. There are a few shooting benches for anyone who does not have one. They are light enough to be moved to any firing position that is available.
Barry, How are the matches scored? By group size only. Or by the score on your target?
You mentioned cross sticks and the 100 yard buffalo bullseye match. A strange thing happened when I attended my first Rondy several miles outside of Atlanta Ga. in 1975. I had set up my buffalo target and was on the line waiting for the command to fire when this old man started talking to me. He was shooting a .28 caliber flintlock and his name was Charlie Haffner, the man who made most of the animal targets we were shooting back then.
The wind was really howling and he asked me how much windage I was going to hold. I said about "8 inches" how about you? He replied "None. I think the windage thing is overrated most of the time so I just hold dead on." Well I had 5 shots in a good group right where I was holding....about 8 inches from the target." He had 5 shots clustered around the bull!"
I guess I've been lucky. Won a lot of matches after that and made several long shots with a CF on Elk and Deer. Never considered the wind and always shot when the drop looked right. I know a lot of people really depend on range flags and such and I've often wondered why the wind has never seemed to affect my shooting?

 

[duelist1954]

Hitting at ranges of 200 yards, or beyond, with a flintlock rifle is not luck, but, as has been stated earlier in the thread, you have to be able to shoot. You also need to understand the ballistics of your rifle, and be able to dope the wind. In the attached video you can see me get on target and then whack a 250-yard steel gong with each barrel of my swivel breech rifle. My earlier misses in the video were because I didn't allow enough for the cross wind. Three of us hit that 250-yard target, twice each...hardly a fluke. This was a shot Morgan's riflemen were expected to make easily.

 

[Darkhorse]

"you have to be able to shoot." Truer words were never spoken about shooting a rifle Duelist1954. It is the one variable most shooters don't want to consider. They get a new flintlock rifle and expect it to shoot moa or under the first trip to the range, but it doesn't. So they blame the rifle, the powder, patch or ball. And never want to consider that they are the real problem. Nobody can take a rifle and shoot a 1/2" group if they themselves can't shoot a 1/2" group.
But sometimes the rifle, or the load does need some work, and maybe the shooter admits he might need help. These are the guys I don't mind helping.
When I started shooting a flintlock I was already a accomplished shooter with CF's and caplocks. So I thought I would also be the same with the flintlock. Boy was I wrong about that! It has taken me years to get where I'm at now. I keep a wooden flint in a rifle all the time now and dryfire the rifle everyday to work on my aim and concentration.
BTW, that's some good shooting you guys are doing at 250 yards. I know I couldn't do that, I don't even have a place to shoot 250 yards. Due to the terrain I can only get 150 yards or so.

 

[Barry Strickland]

Darkhorse, Roundball bench rest targets use scoring rings on the target. The slug gun competition uses some string measure targets.
Charlie would pull your leg till it came off! I do miss the old days in the 60's and 70's when I could hold well, and see well. I guess we can be glad to be around and still having fun with the shoots and people.

 

[Darkhorse]

I was about as green as a shooter could be. I was coming off a win against centerfires that had me super confident. It had been a pre season deer rifle match where the organs had a value, open sights shot at 100 yards, scoped rifles at 200, any position. I practiced hard for several months and did a lot of load testing and I was ready. I found sitting to be my best position and 85 grains of 2fg, pillow ticking .018", and a .530 round ball to be the most accurate.
So they made me wait until last and I shot alone with everybody there gathered around. Most of those people had never seen a black powder rifle shoot. The target was tough, you couldn't see any of the lines outlining the internal organs all you had to aim at was a deer standing there. But all 5 shots felt good and I shot a 21, and a guy with a .243 also shot a 21. We were the top 2 targets and had a shootoff. I knew the guy I was shooting against and he came up to me, shook my hand, and congratulated me on winning 2nd place with a muzzleloader, everybody just assumed it had been luck on my part. My cousin, a combat marine in viet nam who really got me started out right in my rifle shooting told them, "Don't spend your money just yet. Your in for a big surprise" So in the shoot off I shot a 23 and my competition shot a 21.
Anyway I met Mr. Charlie with my chest puffed out and promptly dry balled. No, things didn't go as planned for me. I didn't shoot well at all and my green ness was noted. Mr. Charlie sort of took me under his wing and coached me the whole match. I met up with him a several shoots and each time he took a position next to me and the lessons continued. But your right, he was quite a character indeed.

 

[Rockvillerich]

Hitting at ranges of 200 yards, or beyond, with a flintlock rifle is not luck, but, as has been stated earlier in the thread, you have to be able to shoot. You also need to understand the ballistics of your rifle, and be able to dope the wind. In the attached video you can see me get on target and then whack a 250-yard steel gong with each barrel of my swivel breech rifle. My earlier misses in the video were because I didn't allow enough for the cross wind. Three of us hit that 250-yard target, twice each...hardly a fluke. This was a shot Morgan's riflemen were expected to make easily.

Hiya Mike, great demonstration of the difficulty shooting long range with round balls.

 

[The Crisco Kid]

One of the greatest compliments paid a rifleman is that "He knows how to shoot." Probably the reason you don't hear it too much is that it's only mentioned by others who know how to shoot. All the rest of them don't know the difference. I've watched Mike's videos and unless he was shooting blanks and had someone sitting by the gong with a hammer, he does know how to shoot!

 

[Howard Pippin]

Hiya Mike, great demonstration of the difficulty shooting long range with round balls.

I really doubt the idea that our muzzleloader's are a very effective animal getter at ranges exceeding 100 yards. Perhaps they are for shooting gongs or paper targets. I consider myself as good as the next guy for shooting long-range, but I generally use center-fire amo for that. At our range, I one time made a small Buffalo out of railroad tie plates probably Measuring 2' x 1'. It was placed at 200 yards. I could consistently hit it by aiming at a rock on a hillside behind it that was about 30 feet above. Using the old Kentucky windage idea is not hard if you can see where your other ball hit,You just need to keep raising your point of aim. Perhaps that was good when they were shooting British and German soldiers,especially when they were shooting back. I hate to see people do that on game animals. You only have to see one deer with its jaw shot off to understand this train of thought. I'm sure I could smock our target that's at 300 yards, by just finding a higher rock. We also have a 3 x 4 target at 1000 yards, but I didn't try that one either.

 

[tenngun]

Men shot at two or three hundred yards in the old days were out of the battle, and with the state of medical knowledge then death could come in a few hours or days.
You don’t want that with a deer. Or I don’t want that with my deer. Today I won’t go home to an empty larder if I don’t get a deer. I’ll keep my shooting close.

 

[EN]

I have always considered a muzzle loader a true single shot. It takes a while to load her up again to shoot with good accuracy. So for me every shot I take I would like it to be close to what I was shootin at. So after maybe 3 or 5 shots, I measure how far each shot was from what I was aiming at. Sometimes I actually hit the little mark I was shooting at. So even though my shots weren't touching each other, they may each be only 1 or 2 inches from what I was shooting at. Then if you want you can average the distance and say to yourself, "I was only about an inch and a half from what I was aiming at. For formal competition things might be different. But for those of us who have good sturdy guns, don't feel bad if they are not all touching.

 

[Rockvillerich]

I have always considered a muzzle loader a true single shot. It takes a while to load her up again to shoot with good accuracy. So for me every shot I take I would like it to be close to what I was shootin at. So after maybe 3 or 5 shots, I measure how far each shot was from what I was aiming at. Sometimes I actually hit the little mark I was shooting at. So even though my shots weren't touching each other, they may each be only 1 or 2 inches from what I was shooting at. Then if you want you can average the distance and say to yourself, "I was only about an inch and a half from what I was aiming at. For formal competition things might be different. But for those of us who have good sturdy guns, don't feel bad if they are not all touching.

Small group sizes are very satisfying for sure. With practice we're able to accurately locate where our shots should have ended up, so I'm okay with groups that include a flyer here and there as long as it was my fault. Its all about consistency, and how much you shoot.

 

[Sun City]

Small group sizes are very satisfying for sure. With practice we're able to accurately locate where our shots should have ended up, so I'm okay with groups that include a flyer here and there as long as it was my fault. Its all about consistency, and how much you shoot.

And this is WHY it is so important to have the vision at shot break glued to the front sight; the ability to CALL THE SHOT by knowing where the front sight was in relation to your zero! If the POI was at the CALL you know you've got a good load and that the sights are set!

 

[Rockvillerich]

And this is WHY it is so important to have the vision at shot break glued to the front sight; the ability to CALL THE SHOT by knowing where the front sight was in relation to your zero! If the POI was at the CALL you know you've got a good load and that the sights are set!

Well stated, thanks!