Realistic expectations of black powder shotgun performance?

[brewer12345]

I am tempted to pick up a 12 gauge SxS and use it for hunting, which I usually do with a modern pump. I hunt birds, squirrels, rabbits and jackrabbits just about every weekend in season. I think squirrels and cottontails are no worry. Ducks work with bismuth shot? What kind of reasonable range can I expect with cylinder bore and something like a skychief load? Probably the longest shots and the toughest critters I would be chasing would be jackrabbits. Is a 40 yard shot with 6 shot or better realistic with some work at the patterning board?

 

[Heelerau]

I have found using heavier shot works best with a muzzle loading shotgun. If you use no 6 in a breach loader, for the same job in a ML shotgun use no 4 shot. I have found the 16 gauge shoots harder with the same load I use in a 12 bore. I have shot plenty of rabbits and duck in my old double using 2 1/2 drams of 2 f with an ounce and a 1/4 of no 4 20 to 40 yards fine.

 

[Phil Coffins]

Ballisticly a black powder shot gun is the same as a normal modern shotgun. The chocking has the same effect in all of them . Note how modern cartridges are marked drams equalent. I’ve hunted pheasant, ducks, doves and squirrels with as good results as with cartridge guns. Pattern board is always a good idea.

 

[BullRunBear]

It was thirty years ago but my old CVA 12 gauge SxS took down pheasant and chukkar at about 30 yards. Cylinder bore and a fairly heavy load of #6 shot. That was the last time I hunted (lack of time and places to hunt) so I never knew if I was lucky that day or if the birds were unlucky. However, that shotgun did the job.

Jeff

 

[Historian]

Yes, you need to pattern your gun. I used my dads 12 ga. CVA to hunt ducks with years ago. 90-100 grains of 2Fg 1 1/4 oz. of bismuth shot. I use a variation of the Sky Chief load.
This is a 10ga load but just drop the powder some. 110 grains 2Fg, 1 leather 1/8 inch OP wad, 1/4 inch felt wad lubed with bore butter or olive oil/bees wax mix, 1 1/2 oz. #4 or #2 bismuth shot and then another 1/4 inch lubed felt wad. I shoot out to 40 yards with no problem. I use the same load configuration in 4 different guns and it gives great patterns in all of them. 3 20 ga's and the big 10 ga. You can get bismuth shot at Roto Metals OR Zip Metals. Might be on sale now or you can make your own like I do. You can use your standard 1/8 inch card wads in lieu of the leather. I just find the leather seals better and gives me better patterns. Good luck.

 

[TNGhost]

I have killed Canada Geese with bismuth shot in a CVA SXS, In close, over decoys, but it killed them every bit as dead as my partners did with modern autoloaders and 3" magnum shells.

I was using #1 Bismuth I got from Precision Reloading, over 100 grains of 2F Graf's

Looks like they no longer have #1, but they do have 2s 6s and 7s, and they have Heavyshot, which works really well for waterfowl, but at $249 (7 lbs) and $100 more than the bismuth, not really sure it is worth the extra.

https://www.precisionreloading.com/cart.php#!c=17
If you pick up a replica shotgun with barrels built for steel shot, it is quite a bit cheaper and it holds its pattern better, which helps out of cylinder bore guns. You just need to go to a bigger size than with the heavier shot types.

 

[Elgatodeacero]

I hunt ducks and wild turkey with a TC New Englander 12 gauge with screw in chokes.

keep in mind, that bismuth shot is not very round, so patterns are not as good/dense/round as lead or steel. The best, roundest bismuth shot is from rotometals.com, but even that is just ok.

I like #4 bismuth for ducks and turkey, and it can be loaded naked just like lead.

steel shot just does not work well at black powder speeds, so i do not recommend it, it will also harm muzzleloader barrels unless used with a proper plastic wad. Skip the steel shot. Heavy shot and IDX 10/13 will also harm your barrel without a plastic wad.

lastly, black powder does not launch projectiles at high speed, so if you are use to shooting game with 1 1/8 steel loads at 1550 FPS you will be way behind them when you start with the muzzleloader. You will be lucky to get 1100 FPS with a load of black powder/triple 7 and lead or bismuth.

 

[jager43478]

I am tempted to pick up a 12 gauge SxS and use it for hunting, which I usually do with a modern pump. I hunt birds, squirrels, rabbits and jackrabbits just about every weekend in season. I think squirrels and cottontails are no worry. Ducks work with bismuth shot? What kind of reasonable range can I expect with cylinder bore and something like a skychief load? Probably the longest shots and the toughest critters I would be chasing would be jackrabbits. Is a 40 yard shot with 6 shot or better realistic with some work at the patterning board?

Get the gun jug choked. U will get a lot tighter pattern.

 

[Rudyard]

I am not sure what properties Bismuth shot has. Ide never shoot other than lead and no gun I own has a choke no ML at least . Wouldn't dream of steel shot I've seen some horrors its use has caused . I think Heelerau is on the right track . Rudyard

 

[Elgatodeacero]

Bismuth is very close in density to lead, and very soft/brittle so in needs a little tin added to it.

You can use bismuth just like lead in a muzzleloading shotgun, it is safe for the gun and nontoxic.

 

[Prairieofthedog]

I hunt ducks and wild turkey with a TC New Englander 12 gauge with screw in chokes.

keep in mind, that bismuth shot is not very round, so patterns are not as good/dense/round as lead or steel. The best, roundest bismuth shot is from rotometals.com, but even that is just ok.

I like #4 bismuth for ducks and turkey, and it can be loaded naked just like lead.

steel shot just does not work well at black powder speeds, so i do not recommend it, it will also harm muzzleloader barrels unless used with a proper plastic wad. Skip the steel shot. Heavy shot and IDX 10/13 will also harm your barrel without a plastic wad.

lastly, black powder does not launch projectiles at high speed, so if you are use to shooting game with 1 1/8 steel loads at 1550 FPS you will be way behind them when you start with the muzzleloader. You will be lucky to get 1100 FPS with a load of black powder/triple 7 and lead or bismuth.

Just starting to work up a turkey load for my TC New Englander I have screw in chokes,with a super full extended choke.I have 5 and 6 shot {lead}Do not want to use shot cups if I can help it. I have felt wads and cushion wads,any good loads for Turkey you would like to share? Thanks.

 

[Elgatodeacero]

@Prairieofthedog I don't go in for those super full or even full chokes. I use a modified in mine for turkey and ducks, and an Improved cylinder when I sling a .690 ball.

The main problem with choke tighter than modified is I cannot swab the bore with a wet patch or reload without removing choke tube if it is tighter than modified.

My basic load I settled on for hunting is 100 grains of #4 bismuth and 90 grains 2F Goex. Both by volume. I put one cardboard disc over the powder and one lubed felt wad over the shot. Sometimes I just use a lubed felt wad over powder and same lubed felt wad over shot.

Works great for me.

 

[Eterry]

I am tempted to pick up a 12 gauge SxS and use it for hunting, which I usually do with a modern pump. I hunt birds, squirrels, rabbits and jackrabbits just about every weekend in season. I think squirrels and cottontails are no worry. Ducks work with bismuth shot? What kind of reasonable range can I expect with cylinder bore and something like a skychief load? Probably the longest shots and the toughest critters I would be chasing would be jackrabbits. Is a 40 yard shot with 6 shot or better realistic with some work at the patterning board?

I think 40 yards is asking a lot from a cylinder bore shotgun. I'm not sure if the Skychief load will reach out that far and be effective.

The normal range of cylinder bore is around 25 yards, the Skychief load adds range and density, but not sure if it'll reach 40 yards.

Having your gun jug choked can usually add yards to your range.

My experience with ducks over dekes is a cylinder bore would do well. But your mileage may vary.

 

[Smokinfeathers]

You can find doubles with chokes, I have a older navy choked mod n full n it kills just as good as modern shotgun. I’ve got a new englander with turkey choke that will reach out there n founds some wads that will load through the choke, got a new englander cylinder bore n shoots well using skychief method n also shoots buckshot n 690 roundball well.

I knock squirrels out at over 40yds all the time, I use 80gr 3f n 1 1/4 oz load of 7.5 n have used 1 1/2 oz a lot as well,

 

[William Lincoln]

The first muzzle loaders were basically smoothbore shotguns.

 

[Lorne Johnson]

I am tempted to pick up a 12 gauge SxS and use it for hunting, which I usually do with a modern pump. I hunt birds, squirrels, rabbits and jackrabbits just about every weekend in season. I think squirrels and cottontails are no worry. Ducks work with bismuth shot? What kind of reasonable range can I expect with cylinder bore and something like a skychief load? Probably the longest shots and the toughest critters I would be chasing would be jackrabbits. Is a 40 yard shot with 6 shot or better realistic with some work at the patterning board?

Quite a lot of the responses here are useful. Two stand out as reflecting my experience. First, Elgartoecero notes that black powder does not generate the velocities that modern powders do, and that has certainly been my experience. This is limiting, but hardly a disaster. Heelerau notes that larger shot seems to work better with black powder (even more so than with modern powder), also true in my experience. #4 shot at 900 fps has considerably more energy than #6 shot at 900 fps. BullRunBear suggests 30 yards as a rough limit, which I would agree with as a rule of thumb (I've dropped a couple of pheasants at about double that, which I attribute to "pure dumb luck"). If you think 30 yards, there is plenty of energy even with the lower muzzle velocity, and you don't need monster loads that simply induce a flinch.

 

[SDSmlf]

Quite a lot of the responses here are useful. Two stand out as reflecting my experience. First, Elgartoecero notes that black powder does not generate the velocities that modern powders do, and that has certainly been my experience. This is limiting, but hardly a disaster. Heelerau notes that larger shot seems to work better with black powder (even more so than with modern powder), also true in my experience. #4 shot at 900 fps has considerably more energy than #6 shot at 900 fps.

Curious as to what your actual chronograph data is? Or are you just repeating internet information? Personally, though it has been some time ago, found 90 grains of powder (3-1/4 drams) under 1-1/4 oz of shot in a 12 gauge would would average well over 1100 fps, relatively close to modern shot shell velocity. Please provide your chronograph data if you actually have any.

 

[longcruise]

@SDSmlf he might be referring to velocity at distance

 

[Sparkitoff]

I have done a ton of "testing" with various ML shotguns, as I have a half-dozen that I hunt with. It's hard to get a chrongraph reading. You have to be 5 to maybe 8 feet from the screen. The smoke and any debris causes error readings. When it gives a velocity, it is usually good. Might take 6-shots to get 3 readings. Anyway, what I use most common is 1 1/8 oz scoop of Pyrodex RS with 3 cards, 1 1/8 oz shot and a card. These run 1135 FPS average out of my 12, 13 and 14 gauge guns. Changing powder including Goex 3F, Scheutzen 3F, Pyrodex P or Triple 7 changes the velocity less than 80 FPS either way and sometimes causes a little more velocity spread. My 19 and 24 with 7/8 ounce scoop square run not quite 1100 usually 1090something. More powder, shot or both change things some, but not much. There's a sweet spot where a square load will perform pretty much the same as another square load with slightly different weight.

 

[OldSmoky1967]

I am tempted to pick up a 12 gauge SxS and use it for hunting, which I usually do with a modern pump. I hunt birds, squirrels, rabbits and jackrabbits just about every weekend in season. I think squirrels and cottontails are no worry. Ducks work with bismuth shot? What kind of reasonable range can I expect with cylinder bore and something like a skychief load? Probably the longest shots and the toughest critters I would be chasing would be jackrabbits. Is a 40 yard shot with 6 shot or better realistic with some work at the patterning board?

No bismuth or steel in a damascus barrel.