Cap sizing and the fit to the cones remains the most misunderstood part of percussion firearms usage. Most shooters of single shot muzzleloading rifles and pistols do not agonize over the cap to cone fit the way that percussion revolver shooters do. Even those revolver shooters that do not “agonize,” wrestle with understanding why they have problems with ignition, etc.
The locks on single shot rifles and pistols have three traits that make cap fit (except for them falling off) almost irrelevant: they have much more powerful springs, the hammers usually have significant “over-travel” and there is not a concern about cap fragmenting since they are single shots. What I mean by over-travel is that if the cone face did not stop the hammer, the hammer would continue to be driven for some distance by the spring.
One might ask why potential over-travel is important if it never happens. I primarily has to do with the spring loading at the fully cocked point and at the fully down position. While it is true the hammer spring force can be exactly the same on a hammer with a hard stop and one that would continue to travel if not stopped by the face, the tendency for designers and in manufacturing is to start from the down position and then load the spring as it is cocked. Because of this tendency, 90% of the time a hammer with over-travel will have a higher spring loading at the fully down position.
The high force springs and over-travel make high caps (caps not fully seated) in most cases a non-issue, there is sufficient force to drive the caps home and fire the priming compound. Any cap fragmentation, splitting or caps hanging onto the hammer or cone doesn't pose a problem on a single shot. There is no threat from pieces falling into a hammer channel or clogging the action.
The same is not true for percussion revolvers. On the models germane to these conversations the hammer springs are often intentionally manufactured lighter than the original springs the pistols had in the 19th century. The manufacturers have created a problem trying to cater to the average customer's expectations on the amount of force required for cocking. The method of manipulating a percussion revolver and the shooting sports these revolvers are used in have driven the manufacturers to use spring forces on par with the springs they install in their cartridge revolvers. This along with the fact the hammers are stopped by the hammer channel and may not have sufficient velocity or residual hammer force make caps that have not been fully seated a major problem with reliable ignition on revolvers. Cap fragmentation is the bane of revolver shooters, cap fragmentation can be exacerbated by the cone fit or the back blast and it plays havoc with subsequent shots.
I have never seen a complete compilation of data concerning cap sizes as to what the measured sizes mean in terms of cap to cone fit. I have seen a few charts where individuals have measured a few of the commonly available caps, but instead of helping us understand the caps fits, the authors of those charts often draw the wrong conclusions as to what the sizes actually mean. Those charts have been, and are continuing to be used as “evidence” into the lack of “Cap Standardization” instead of helping the reader know which caps to try, or which will work the best for them.
I'm not trying to be overly critical of people who maintain there is no “standard” because there is confusion over the correct cap size to use on pistols and rifles because there isn't a published “Industry Standard” size for caps such as we have for rifle and pistol primers. In trying to understand technology of the 19th and earlier centuries we often make the mistake of trying to apply 20th and 21st century standards and practices. Modern manufacturing processes were in their infancy, interchangeability and standard sizing was still being developed. In most cases there was no standard other than meeting the needs of the customers, whether that was the military or the commercial markets. The military requirements are what drove most of the standardization we have come to expect today. If you review the caps that were available in the mid-19th century you will find they were almost always not labeled not by a universal size (that came later), but by which firearms they were intended to be used on. For example look at these two tins:
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums...imer/1_d112fe1ed61b6b90c23c05a46d530d98-1.jpg Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Capshttp://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap%20Gun%20Primer/RemCaps.jpg Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
The cap manufacturers obviously fabricated their caps to fit the tubes of the particular firearms they were intended to be used on. Colt's set the standard for revolver tubes by being the first and also by being the 800 pound gorilla. I have limited data on original Remington cones, but the two I have, though different in length from the original Colt's tubes I have will accept our current #11 caps just as the original Colt's tubes will.
What the posters I mentioned earlier who were trying to prove there is no standardization in modern caps miss is that the manufacture and sizing of caps has changed very little in the last 180 years except for the change in the priming compounds. Based on measurements of commonly available tubes on factory weapons and aftermarket tubes there are common tube geometries that will accept either #10 or #11 Caps (including RWS 1075 caps) today, just as there was in the 1860’s. The modern manufacturers today do what Eley and the others did in the 19th century, they make caps to fit the tubes that are available. How they go about it is the subject of this thread.
~Mako
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 06:56:52 PM by John Boy » Report to moderator Logged
Author Topic: Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps(Read 750 times)
Mako
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« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2012, 03:45:04 PM »
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There are 5 caps in the #10 and #11 range commonly available today. The RWS 1075 seems to be impossible to find these days and appears to have been "replaced" by the RWS 1075 Plus in availability. The "Plus" cap is actually a "magnum" cap but will work for our purposes. In addition to the five is an entry supplied by Hellgate for an RWS #55 cap, these are also called RWS 1055 caps and I will add to the data sets when I locate a package of them I squirreled away somewhere.
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap Gun Primer/Chart7_28_11.png Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
I have now measured:
120 Remington #10 Caps from four distinct manufacturing lots, 20 caps from each package (two lots provided 2 packages)
120 Remington #11 Caps from five distinct manufacturing lots, 20 caps from each package (two lots provided 2 packages)
120 CCI #10 Caps from Three distinct manufacturing lots, 20 caps from each package (3 packages from one lot, 2 from another and 1 from a final lot)
120 CCI #11 Caps from five distinct manufacturing lots, 20 caps from each package (2 packages from 2 lots, and 1 from two other lots)
87 RWS 1075 Caps from one lot
79 RWS 1075Plus Caps from one lot
This is an image from models of the five caps in question, note how all of the caps are arranged to set the height as it would be relative to sitting on the cone face, this will give you some idea of the differences in priming compound thickness between the caps.
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap Gun Primer/SectionedCaps.png Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
These side by side comparisons of the cross sectioned models will help you understand why some caps appear to be "larger" than others on the exterior, but are in fact nearly the same size internally or actually a bit smaller than another cap that might have an overall shorter outer height.
Construction differences are readily apparent between the three manufacturers. The corrugated features show up as a ribs on the inside of the CCI caps, a ghost image of the corrugation shows through on the Remington caps, but are not measurable. The Remington caps have the four "petals" left on them which is part of the forming process. Actually all three styles of caps have these petals at a point in their forming process. CCI and RWS trim the bottom of the skirt and finish them differently. RWS applies an internal chamfer to the skirt to facilitate loading and CCI breaks the outer edge slightly. Only Remington leaves the skirt as formed, this "as formed" condition often manifests itself with petals of slightly different length on the same cap (look at the photo of the Remington #10 cap as an example of this).
Photos in subsequent posts will show the internal features and differences described above.
The external heights are as follows:
The #10 Caps
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap Gun Primer/10Caps.png Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
The #11 Caps (note the RWS 1075s are categorized as #11 caps because they fit the same cones as caps marked as #11)
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap Gun Primer/11Caps.png Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
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Mako
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« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2012, 03:53:40 PM »
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The Remington #10 Cap is the longest cap of the bunch. This confuses people because it appears to be the "largest cap," when in fact it is the smallest or tightest fitting cap. The tightness is due to the length of the skirt hitting the taper of the cone further down the body where the diameter is larger.
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap Gun Primer/Rem10d.jpg Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Capshttp://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap%20Gun%20Primer/Rem10A.jpg Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap Gun Primer/Rem10.png Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
The two "important" dimensions are the Internal Diameter and the Internal Height. These two dimensions will determine the fit on a cone.
Note the fold seam ("split") that appears at crotch of the petal which is an artifact from the forming operation. You can see also the superficial marking made by the roll tool that made the corrugations; it shows through as a "ghost" image to the interior but is not measurable. The Shiny material on the interior is the sealing compound used over the green paper bursting disk covering the priming compound.
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« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2012, 04:00:26 PM »
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The CCI #10 Cap fits the same cones as the much longer Remington cap. The internal diameter is the smallest of the five caps and hits the tapered cone at roughly the same height as all of the other caps except for the Remington #10. The smaller diameter makes the tighter fit on this cap.
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap Gun Primer/CCI10c.jpg Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Capshttp://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap%20Gun%20Primer/CCI10A.jpg Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap Gun Primer/CCI10B.jpg Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap Gun Primer/CCI10.png Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
The two "important" dimensions are the Internal Diameter and the Internal Height. These two dimensions will determine the fit on a cone.
The ribbing actually shows through on the interior walls. There is sealant from the bursting disk shows on the walls with a distinct line from the process. The yellow colored Bursting Disk covering the priming compound appears to be a fiber and binder mixture instead of a paper disk.
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« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2012, 04:05:22 PM »
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The Remington #11 Cap has the same internal I.D.s as the Remington #10. The difference is in the skirt length (Internal Height). The shorter skirt doesn't extend as far down the taper of the cone and will fit on a larger diameter cone. Compare the internal height and the I.D. between the three #11 style caps and they are very similar. The Remington appears to be "smaller" than the other two #11 caps because it has a shorter exterior height; the difference is in the priming compound thickness.
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap Gun Primer/Rem11a.jpg Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap Gun Primer/Rem11B.jpg Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap Gun Primer/Rem11.png Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
The Remington #11 cap shares the same green paper Bursting Disk with the #10 version. It also shows residual sealant on the inside. The close up photo shows the cracks at the petal crotch that often pass entirely through from the exterior to the interior.
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« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2012, 04:10:11 PM »
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The CCI #11 Caps are very similar to the CCI #10 caps with the exception of the Internal Diameter. The I.D.s and internal height are very similar between all three manufacturers.
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap Gun Primer/CCI11c.jpg Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Capshttp://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap%20Gun%20Primer/CCI11A.jpg Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap Gun Primer/CCI11.png Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
The ribbing shows through on the interior walls. There is sealant from the bursting disk shows on the walls with a distinct line from the process. The reddish brown colored Bursting Disk covering the priming compound appears to be a fiber and binder mixture instead of a paper disk.
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Mako
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« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2012, 04:15:49 PM »
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The RWS 1075 Cap is actually a #11 size cap (which means it will fit on cones that caps labeled as #11 will also fit).
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap Gun Primer/RWS1075-1.jpg Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap Gun Primer/RWS1075.png Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
The cap has a tan fibrous bursting disk and it it sealed with a clear green sealer. The interior edge of the bottom of the skirt has been chamfered and this creates a "saw tooth" pattern along the bottom edge.
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« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2012, 04:22:09 PM »
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Some of the Factory tubes have cones that are smaller in diameter and #10 caps fit snuggly on them while #11 caps will fall off (unless pinched). I do not recommend pinching except in extreme circumstances, pinching can create its own set of problems.
This illustration depicts the two contact points for the two different #10 caps when they are fully seated on the cone.
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap Gun Primer/UbertiTube.png Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap Gun Primer/10SEctionedCaps.png Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap Gun Primer/10CapsonCones.png Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
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« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2012, 04:26:17 PM »
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Treso Cones are designed for #11 caps, the model is derived from measurements taken from 4 sets of factory fresh tubes (24 tubes).
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap Gun Primer/TresoTube.png Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap Gun Primer/11SectionedCaps.png Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap Gun Primer/11CapsonTresoTubes.png Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
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« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2012, 04:33:22 PM »
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Poor Cap fit: There are three kinds of poor cap fit. The kind that causes the most grief are caps fitting too tightly on the cones. This causes high caps and inconsistent ignition. This is an example of such a condition, in this case a CCI #10 cap has been placed on the cone and pressed down until it has exactly the same amount of interference a #11 Cap would have on the cone (roughly .003"). As you can see the cap sights proud and there is .047" of clearance between the priming compound and the cone face.
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap Gun Primer/10onTresoCone1.png Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
Some shooters will maintain they have no problems with "undersize" caps; they use a pushing stick and force a tight fitting cap down. This is commonly done, but it often results in caps that are split before firing and they may even become loose at that point. If the cap is not fully seated it often will not fire on the first hammer strike because the force of the hammer blow is used to seat the cap further onto the cone instead of crushing the priming compound between the hammer (top of the cap) and the face of the cone.
The second condition is a large cap on a small cone. Some factory cones are better suited to #10 caps; if you "seat" a #11 cap on those cones you will not get a fit that will keep the cap in place. Often the cap will fall free or back off under recoil from the previous chamber and by the time it reaches alignment for firing it is not seated. Once again you may get a "soft" hit as the hammer attempts to drive it home.
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap Gun Primer/CCI11onsmalltube1.png Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
The third condition is created by shooters using the technique of "pinching" caps to create a friction fit between the oversize cap and the cone.
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap Gun Primer/Sectionedpinchedcap.png Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap Gun Primer/Sectionedcone.png Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
Pinching caps creates a path for hot gases coming back through the flash hole on the chamber being fired to find a path directly to the priming compound. When Samuel Colt was selling his pistols he was advertizing them as being "water proof." We all know they weren't "water proof" but they were intended to be sealed at the rear. He struggled with chain fires and rear “flash-overs” for years. He finally realized what was happening and changed his enclosed breach design and buried the tubes into the rear of the cylinder. Why would we "unlearn" what they used to know?
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« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2012, 01:25:29 PM »
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Pinched caps continued:
A reader sent me a message and asked if the castellations on the rear of the cylinders wouldn't prevent chain fires from the rear if a cap was in place. They didn't understand how the hot gases could negotiate the tortuous path and make it through a small opening created by a pinched cap.
What many people don't know is that Colt's earliest designs suffered from chain reactions due to a closed breech design Colt originally touted as a safety feature and a protection to the caps from the elements. Colt found his enclosed standing breech and on some designs enclosed blast shields on the front of the cylinders except the one aligned to the barrel, not only allowed chain fires, but exacerbated the problem. His later designs deepened the castellations and dropped the top of the cones below the surface of the rear of the cylinder. Even with these improvements the cloud of burning gas that actually comes back through a flash hole and envelops the entire rear breech area is much more than we imagine.
On August 29, 1839 Samuel Colt was issued a new patent for Improvement in Fire-Arms and in the Apparatus Used Therewith, included in his claims was a feature we now take for granted. That feature was the reduced opening at the chamber end of a percussion tube.
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap Gun Primer/Pat1304Figure7.jpg Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap Gun Primer/1304-5Fig7.jpg Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
Prior to his design, tube through holes were either straight through or tapered in the opposite direction like a rocket engine nozzle as defined by the Robert Adams (Englishman) patent. With single shot weapons the back blast wasn’t a significant issue and was much less than the flintlock actions they replaced. The expanding nozzle design was intended to enhance the effect of the burning priming compound and allow it to expand into the chamber. However the Adams design had a disadvantage in that powder “fines” could find their way into the tube itself and was prone to split upon firing. Again this was not a significant issue with larger rifles (using coarse powder and a tall charge) or even locks that had the flash hole path not in line with the chamber. With a small charge of finer powder and the crushing action of the rammer in line with the flash hole a’ la many percussion revolver designs the fines sometimes had a way of falling back into the tube flash hole.
I have had conversations with other engineers about the section of US1304 that pertains to the through hole. The claim that Colt was making is that it enhanced the amount of ignition gas that could be “funneled” into the chamber, not that it allowed expansion as you would see with a nozzle. He had found that straight through holes had to be sufficiently small to prevent back blast back through the tube. In true Colt fashion he did not state, this “helped prevent chain fires by limiting the back blast through the flash hole.” Colt did not wish to draw attention to this potential problem because it was one that plagued him and had caused consternation in his earliest military tests. He instead made it a “feature”¦”, it funneled the “effect of the percussion powder” was his claim.
Colt’s held this patent feature until 1853 when others began to use the same design. I have never seen it executed as a conical form, it is always a stepped arrangement on the 19th century tubes I have seen. Modern tubes have gone even further with the better percussion caps we have and have reduced the exit hole even further as is the case on high quality tubes like the Tresos. Small exit holes help reduce the amount of back blast.
In 2002 Dr. Authur Tobias (who is also a Colt’s collector) with the help of high speed photography published an article titled, In the Blink of an Eye: The Percussion Ignition Sequence in Civil War .44s where he took both a Colt’s Army Model and a Remington 58 and recorded the sequence of ignitions of those two pistols. Below is the ignition sequence of an 1860 SN 138466 made in 1863.
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap Gun Primer/1860sequence-1-1.jpg Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap Gun Primer/44backblast-1.jpg Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap Gun Primer/4thframe1860sequence.jpg Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps
Note in the first individual frame the amount of burning material being thrown back past the hammer towards the shooter. In the second individual photo which is the 4th frame in the sequence you can see how fully engulfed the entire breach area is with hot burning gases. These gases will bounce off of the breech face back down into the castellations and then back up from the face the tube is screwed into. It is not hard to imagine this hot gas finding a way into the gap created by pinching a cap.
So, in closing; yes, the castellations will definitely help. But, as the photos illustrate, the burning gas rebounds off of the breech face and will jet into the cap areas to the right or left of the one being fired.
And one last thought”¦remember those where original Colt’s tubes, not the modern designs like the Treso which many of us push with almost religious fervor. The Treso flash hole is specifically designed to attenuate the back blast coming back through the hole, while at the same time doing just as Samuel Colt’s 173 year old patent claim intended, they funnel the priming gases down into the chamber.
Regards,
Mako
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« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2012, 01:34:42 PM »
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This thread is for information only.
Please place all discussion on this topic here:
http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=9094.0
Thank you!
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