Regarding DOM/Seamless Barrels...

[ahil925]

I suppose you don't want to hear from me because I have not used DOM tubing to make a barrel, but I will mention a few things that one should know before they go out and buy some of it.

Heck, it was never my intent to come off as close-minded. Your advice is always welcome as that of everyone else on this board. I've read a number of your posts, including those on DOM barrels in other threads, and that's what spurred me to make this thread.

I was hoping to sort out what manufacturers/suppliers produced "Barrel Grade" DOM, vs which products to stay away from. In that regard, you've helped quite abit.

As I stated in my original post, I know where I can get inexpensive (albeit short and highly nontraditional profiled) RIFLED barrels that are of trustworthy quality.

This probably should go in a different thread, but the Gunsmith Special Raw blanks from GMRB (The_Link), is there any reason they couldn't be used for muzzleloading projects? I know most of the ones listed are rather short for anything then pistol barrels, but would the rifling twist be to much for muzzleloading?

If they made some in smoothbore and double the length I'd gladdly pay double the price...

 

[Mike Brooks]

What is your opinion of the DOM octagon-to-round barrels that used to be sold by Tennessee Valley Manufacturing and those that Jackie Brown used to use on the muzzleloaders that he built? Have you heard of any of those bursting?

There were rumors at Friendship that one of Brown's barrels burst. I don't remember the details, it must have been a decade ago now. Maybe he'll jump in here and fill in the details.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Zonie, thank you for the knowledgeable and detailed post on the reality of DOM as a material for "gun barrels".

 

[Rifleman1776]

Can't argue with the experts.
But, do keep in mind, JB, and other builders, have built many-many guns over the years with the so-called DOM tubing.
On other threads about this material no one has ever been able to recall a single incident of catastrophic failure with one of these when properly used.
In the ML game you will hear many notions and theories. A couple that come to mind from past times.
* Douglas barrels are dangerous because they have too high a lead content in the steel and will blow up. Countless thousands of Douglas barrels are in use on some of the finest muzzle loaders ever made in contemporary times. I know of no failures with proper use.
*Thompson-Center barrels are dangerous because they are rifled using hydraulic button rifling machines that produce excessive stress. Some have blown up while being rifled. Others have blown up spontaneously just because of internal stresses caused by the button rifling process. And others have blown up with proper use because of those stresses.
Please note: the above is nonsense. It is all unfounded beliefs and rumors from the past. There may be grains of plausibility, in theory, but, to the best of my knowledge, no failures in fact from proper use.
If you hear of any catastrophic failures of DOM barrels with proper use, please let us all know.
I would say, get what suits you and your budget. Don't sweat it.

 

[ebiggs1]

Just Jim,
We used little DOM in the shop at Hallmark so my experience with it is limited. But, yes, I know that DOM is not seamless, Drawn Over Mandrel but electrically welded first.
But what I am curious about is, I can't imagine 4140 DOM being LESS strong than a 1700's Brown Bess barrel was. Is there a flaw in my thinking?

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Just Jim,
We used little DOM in the shop at Hallmark so my experience with it is limited. But, yes, I know that DOM is not seamless, Drawn Over Mandrel but electrically welded first.
But what I am curious about is, I can't imagine 4140 DOM being LESS strong than a 1700's Brown Bess barrel was. Is there a flaw in my thinking?

Sorry but yes, very likely. Read Zonie's post again, it can very well be a misuse of improper materials. The hand-made lap welded Brown Bess barrel was well forge welded by an experienced man who knew exactly what material he was using and how to do his job. The material was soft iron as close to pure iron as you can get with as few inclusions as possible. A barrel made of that material with those methods will stand up to a heavy charge and not come apart. In case of failure, that would usually happen in proof firing which far exceeded any charge a reasonably competent soldier would load it with. Lastly, when they did fail, they did not shatter as modern steels tend to do, they usually split or ruptured where an inclusion was found to be the culprit and usually in the thinner section of the tapered barrel away from the shooter. Steel under the same circumstances stands a much better chance of shattering and throwing fragments. Is the iron barrel stronger? No, but certainly more forgiving.

 

[Zonie]

First off, there is a good reason for Britain to insist on proof testing and it goes back to the days of the Bess.
So convinced were they that they wrote laws mandating it that still stand today.

The Bess was not invincible and I have no doubt that some of them failed in service even with their proof testing. Anyway, this topic is not about Besses so I'll get on with my thoughts.

I don't recall saying that a barrel made from 4130 was less strong than a 1700 Bess barrel.

In fact, that material (4130), even in its annealed condition is quite strong. MUCH better than 1018 or 1020.

Even in DOM tubing I think that 4130 may be suitable for a lower pressure barrel material like one used for a pistol or shotgun (or a musket).

Before someone goes off yelling, "Zonie said DOM is good for barrels!" let me emphasize that there is more to designing and making barrels than just the material.
The wall thickness is of paramount importance and if someone builds a barrel out of some 4130 DOM tubing with a .125 thick wall its full length they are asking to get their heads blown off.

The problem with 4130 DOM tubing is its availability.

I am looking at a catalog from one of the larger suppliers of tubing in the US and first off I should mention that they do not show any 4140 material tubing of any kind at all. They also do not show 4130 DOM tubing.

They do show 4130 Cold Drawn tubing and they show many different sizes of DOM made from 1020 and some made from 1026. (I believe I have read somewhere that JB uses 1026 which does have better strengths than either 1018 or 1020).

In fact, if I were to go by this companies catalog I would say there is no such thing as 4130 or 4140 DOM tubing.

In a 1" thru 1 1/4" outside diameter size with a .250 or thicker wall the only DOM tubing they show at all is made from either 1020 or 1026.

I should mention that Cold Drawn tubing is similar to DOM tubing in that it is rolled and electric arc welded along its length.
It is then drawn thru dies to reduce its diameter and to smooth out the welded area so that the weld is not visible from the outside.

 

[ebiggs1]

And Va.Manuf.06

I guess I see what you are saying. I can't recall now what the specs were on the DOM we used. It was on injection mold dies where the pressure is pretty great. Knowing Hallmark, as I do, they got the best (strongest) they could possibly get. I don't think I would want to use an original Brown Bess barrel in the place of the DOM tubing on the dies, however.
I have no notion to make a barrel of any kind out of any thing, DOM tubing or otherwise.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

And Va.Manuf.06

I guess I see what you are saying. I can't recall now what the specs were on the DOM we used. It was on injection mold dies where the pressure is pretty great. Knowing Hallmark, as I do, they got the best (strongest) they could possibly get. I don't think I would want to use an original Brown Bess barrel in the place of the DOM tubing on the dies, however.

You might be surprised at how it would do, probably strong enough but too soft and it would wear out relatively quickly

I have no notion to make a barrel of any kind out of any thing, DOM tubing or otherwise.

Me neither, we'll let the guys who know what they are doing, like Zonie, Getz, Rayl, etc. and etc. make those choices about what is safe to use. I will stick with the materials used in the products made by the known makers. :hatsoff:

 

[Zonie]

Thanks for the thought but don't include me with the experts who are famous for making barrels. I don't deserve it.
The only barrel I ever made was a 6 inch long brass cannon barrel on my Uncle's lathe.

Actually, I can't recall a single instance of specifying a carbon steel tube of any kind on a jet or gas turbine engine or to be used for the raw stock to make some sort of part for one of those engines.

All of the tubing we used was made from various 300 series austenitic stainless steels.
These were Aircraft quality tubes often controlled by Mil-T-8808 or similar requirements.

 

[ebiggs1]

Zonie did you ever bring up an old memory! In my Metal Shop class at high school, I made a model of an Old Ironsides canon. :grin: I made the barrel so I could put a fire cracker in the breech and a marble in the muzzle and it would shoot the marble. :shocked2:
Of coarse I didn't tell my shop teacher what the very curious looking breech end was actually for. So I guess I am a barrel maker! :hmm:

 

[tg]

"As I recall, Tennessee Valley Manufacturing recently said they don't use barrels made from DOM tubing."

If this is true what are they using to make their barrels that have no taper in the oct or the round sections? ans why bother? also I am certain that any reputable builder such as JB would be forthcomming in explaining the circumstances if one of their barrels were to fail.