REPAIR on RIFLING - old original austrian Jaeger rifle

[earlwb]

I agree with what they said. You can leave it as is and it will shoot fine. You could get the rifle bore freshened or rebored and rifled again in a larger caliber. You could also have it bored out and a rifled liner inserted too. I vote for leaving it as is and shooting it as is too.

 

[M. De Land]

Good day from Europe to every rifleman of the ...new world !

I have a question to the SPECIALISTS of the new world.

I just bought an old original austrian Jaeger flintlock rifle, approx. year of construction early 1700s.
Rifle is in very good condition and 100% usable. Bore is amazing clean for the age of the rifle ! It has the
classical old style rifling with "half round" grooves of that period (no idea how this kind of rifling is called in USA).
Lands are 99% perfect and clean, from muzzle to the chamber. Bore was full with thick old grease when I bought the rifle !
See pictures please.
Grooves are very fine too, except of 2 small rust holes just at the middle of barrels length.
Is not easy to measure them, but the size should be 2X2 mm the small one, and 3X5mm the bigger.
Depth of holes about 1,5mm.
I asked 3-4 rifling specialists in Ferlach (they have seen the barrel) and in Germany about the posibility to
repair this damage. All of them gave me the same simple answer. "Hone the bore and recut the rifling" ...
It is clear this can be done on every old barrel if material is thick enough ! !
But I want to let the rifle as original as possible and if there is a posibility to find a way of repairing it gently
and decently (no matter of cost) I would to it.

Thanking in advance for any comments, ideas and suggestions !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Epimenidis
View attachment 173969View attachment 173970






If you go the lapping route then use a lube patch before shooting a clean barrel to fill the pits with lube and the patch ball shoyld slide right over never knowing it exists.
























5

I see two options myself. Lead hand lapping , not to remove the pits but to smooth them so they won't tear patches and the other option is to freshen the bore (not re-bore and and re-rifle which significantly increases bore diameter) which keeps the same profile but lowers the lands and deepens the groove. This would be the best option in my view as it would only increase the caliber by the amount to clear the pits.
A pitted bore that is properly lapped will shoot as good as new if it doesn't tear the patch or hook lead when shooting conicals.

 

[M. De Land]

I see two options myself. Lead hand lapping , not to remove the pits but to smooth them so they won't tear patches and the other option is to freshen the bore (not re-bore and and re-rifle which significantly increases bore diameter) which keeps the same profile but lowers the lands and deepens the groove. This would be the best option in my view as it would only increase the caliber by the amount to clear the pits.
A pitted bore that is properly lapped will shoot as good as new if it doesn't tear the patch or hook lead when shooting conicals.

Ooooops, I see Rich has already covered the freshening side of things.

 

[toot]

pits are a way of life in old guns! more of them are shot with then than you realize!

 

[FlinterNick]

Only way to fix that is to reline the barrel and then have it rifled. Essentially a new barrel in the old.

 

[springfield art]

Those in English are called "pits". You have pits inside your barrel.

So you just want it repaired OR do you want to shoot it?
If you just want to repair the rifling, save your money and leave it alone.

IF you want to shoot it, THEN take it out and shoot it..., and see if the patches are harmed by the barrel pits, and what sort of accuracy you get. It could be that they have negligible effect on accuracy, and in that case, ignore them and be very diligent when you clean the barrel so they don't get worse.

In The States, IF you had to have it re-rifled, you might have a very difficult task finding a gunsmith who would do it as a duplicate of the rifling style now in the barrel. Austria might be different when it comes to antique rifle repair. But honing or reboring the barrel to remove the old rifling would work, but it would be less than "original" and the caliber would increase.

OH and we need to see photos of the whole rifle, please.

LD

Bobby Hoyt in the USA could advise; but Europe may have some specialists, too. Let us know how it works out!

 

[Erwan]

You maybe can try like on the video, I did it one time on a Tryon with a ring in the barrel and the result was pretty fine...
That won't really repair your barrel, but certainly softens the defaults to get a better way for the patches can stay in good condition and can't be couldn't be torn:

 

[Zapadach]

Those in English are called "pits". You have pits inside your barrel.

So you just want it repaired OR do you want to shoot it?
If you just want to repair the rifling, save your money and leave it alone.

IF you want to shoot it, THEN take it out and shoot it..., and see if the patches are harmed by the barrel pits, and what sort of accuracy you get. It could be that they have negligible effect on accuracy, and in that case, ignore them and be very diligent when you clean the barrel so they don't get worse.

In The States, IF you had to have it re-rifled, you might have a very difficult task finding a gunsmith who would do it as a duplicate of the rifling style now in the barrel. Austria might be different when it comes to antique rifle repair. But honing or reboring the barrel to remove the old rifling would work, but it would be less than "original" and the caliber would increase.

OH and we need to see photos of the whole rifle, please.

LD

Shoot the gun, if need be, learn the art of Kentucky windage. As long as the piece is safe to shoot, shoot it. Just make sure you are facing west not east. You don't want to rile your neighbors.

 

[Jaeger]

Pictures of the rifle.

That is a beautiful OLD Jaeger rifle, and a spectacular antique! I would be very careful shooting it so as not to damage it and its value. Be careful with your loads!

 

[flntlokr]

the small moving part (no idea how is it called in englich) which all locks with set trigger have. In Germany they call is "fliege" = fly.

same in English. By the way, I'd shoot it and see how it does before doing anythig about the pits. Beautiful old rifle.

 

[Bobby44]

Shoot it first and see how it goes. Many old rifles with barrels in worse condition than yours still shoot quite well.

Just because you own a fine rifle that is 300 years old and use able does not mean you have to use it. If you must use it -- treat it like a 300 yo rifle. Respect! then load and shoot it properly. Unless you see something 'bad' from the shooting you can say you have a 300 yo shooter with a couple of pits. Myself? I would then preserve the bore and clean and shine the exterior and put it on proud display.

 

[Robby]

16 mm is about a .62 caliber. If it shoots well, I would leave it as it is paying special attention to cleaning. If not, then freshening is the way to go in my opinion. I have freshened two barrels with pits, a long and dirty job but in my case, well worth the effort in improved accuracy.
I see that the original gun smith and I have something in common.
Either way, Viel Glück für Sie
Robby

 

[rich pierce]

Only way to fix that is to reline the barrel and then have it rifled. Essentially a new barrel in the old.

Hmmm I’ve re-cut original rifling ( freshing) on at least a couple dozen barrels.

 

[gunnerasch]

As an American who tinkers with old firearms.. Id say simply, go shoot it and enjoy it. Those two pits are of no consequence. Just make sure you clean it well after every shoot, and it will last another few hundred years.

 

[FlinterNick]

Hmmm I’ve re-cut original rifling ( freshing) on at least a couple dozen barrels.

Are you saying lining a refilling a barrel is not an option?

You recut rifling yes, the problem is finding someone who will do it.

 

[rich pierce]

Are you saying lining a refilling a barrel is not an option?

You recut rifling yes, the problem is finding someone who will do it.

Nick, I thought you said that re-lining was the only way, and I’ve tried another way successfully. That’s all, no offense intended.

 

[SDSmlf]

Only way to fix that is to reline the barrel and then have it rifled. Essentially a new barrel in the old.

Relining an original barrel is an option, but refreshing the traditional period repair. Actually not that difficult to do if one has a bit of time and patience.

 

[EPIMENIDIS]

Are you saying lining a refilling a barrel is not an option?

You recut rifling yes, the problem is finding someone who will do

Those in English are called "pits". You have pits inside your barrel.

So you just want it repaired OR do you want to shoot it?
If you just want to repair the rifling, save your money and leave it alone.

IF you want to shoot it, THEN take it out and shoot it..., and see if the patches are harmed by the barrel pits, and what sort of accuracy you get. It could be that they have negligible effect on accuracy, and in that case, ignore them and be very diligent when you clean the barrel so they don't get worse.

In The States, IF you had to have it re-rifled, you might have a very difficult task finding a gunsmith who would do it as a duplicate of the rifling style now in the barrel. Austria might be different when it comes to antique rifle repair. But honing or reboring the barrel to remove the old rifling would work, but it would be less than "original" and the caliber would increase.

OH and we need to see photos of the whole rifle, please.

LD

• I totally muffed on trying to make this a bulleted list working on my phone. Bear with me. I have done a lot of recutting of original rifling as it was done routinely in the past. It’s not easy to explain in detail in limited space but here are the basics:

STEP 1: POUR A LEAD LAP ON A DOWEL
Get a hardwood rod almost bore diameter and a foot longer than the barrel.
Unbreech the barrel.
4” from one end of the rod file a groove 1/8” deep around the rod. This will hold string in place, wound around the groove and built up to make a strong gasket seal in the bore.
From just above the groove, encompassing 3” of the rod toward the end, file the rod square with the square diagonals smaller than the dowel. We will cast a lead lap onto this square portion.
Insert the un-altered end of the rod into the muzzle till the “string groove” is just above the muzzle. Wrap with cotton string till you have built up a little ridge and tie it off and cut the end.
Gently push the rod in till the square portion is just beneath the muzzle crown.
You may need to file or gouge a little groove to pour lead into, right at the top of the square portion.
Heat the top 6” of the barrel with a propane torch till water sizzles while melting 2 ounces of lead in a ladle.
Pour the lead into the muzzle, filling the square relieved portion of the rod.

If anyone wants the further steps, let me know.

XXXL thanks for your answer ! Is clear what you write here. If I understand well you, explaine me the old way of lapping after new rifling or after refreshing rifling. Except the 2 pits, bore is very clean and shootable, both lands and grooves are free, pits are lower than lands and grooves, see my drawing.

 

[EPIMENIDIS]

That is a beautiful OLD Jaeger rifle, and a spectacular antique! I would be very careful shooting it so as not to damage it and its value. Be careful with your loads!

Is 101% clear that i ll not use ...TNT, just black power ;-)) Thank you at any case for your advice !

 

[M. De Land]

XXXL thanks for your answer ! Is clear what you write here. If I understand well you, explaine me the old way of lapping after new rifling or after refreshing rifling. Except the 2 pits, bore is very clean and shootable, both lands and grooves are free, pits are lower than lands and grooves, see my drawing.

I've personally done a lot of lead hand lapping of all kinds of barrels and a couple of tips in making a lap.
Don't heat the barrel up very much when pouring the lap as it will expand and make the bore larger than it is cool which will often grip the lap and make it immovable. A few wrinkles in the cast lap hurt nothing as long as the land corners are sharp and defined.
Also you will need a guide for the other end to keep the rod off the land tops as it will get lapping compound on it eventually.
Lapping only smooths and often will remove only a few 10/1000s. I have lapped some barrels that took 2500 cycles and three progressively finer lap grit changes. I usually start at 220-300 and finish up with 400.
The thing to remember is that lap grit breaks down and smooths out just like sand paper does with use. I have found over the years one does not need to go finer than 400 grit that is worn out to get the bore surface to an almost perfect state of finish. To smooth a bore and accuracy starts going the other way !
One wants to get the bore at least level or with some choke in the muzzle. It is all done by feel and takes some experience to get it right.
I typically cast a lap, oil the bore with the lap before charging it to make sure it does not hang up.
When charging the lap one only needs to apply grit on one end of the lap and the compound will quickly spread over it's entire length. The lap compound works much better if it is oiled and made creamy, not left in paste form.
I usually recharge the lap after every 50 cycles ( up and back is one cycle) and then cast a new lap every 250 cycles as it wears.
Tight spots get a little shoe shine (back and forth) motion and then a blend in stroke either side until it feels like the rest of the barrel.
The thing to remember is all a bores rifling has to do, to make a projectile accurate, is to spin it without deforming in any way. The patch and ball doesn't care one wit about how rough the bore is as long as they can maintain their shape and weight while making the traverse .
Lapped pits( if not extreme) will fill with lube and fouling, bridge the patch ball traverse and act as if they were never there.
They do however need to be eliminated in the crown for best accuracy ! A crown will need to be cut back to virgin steel with no pits or land end wear for top accuracy. This was the reason for false muzzles in target guns and loading rod guides in match rifles. Wood loading rods used with no guide will quickly wear a muzzle out of perfect square and round.