Replica 1851 Colt Navy

[smokepole4me]

Hello everyone I recently purchased a used Euro Arms Replica 1851 Colt Navy with brass frame in.44cal I realize they only made .36 cal in 1851 so its a kind of replica. My question is that I am concerned about the gap between the cylinder and barrel, it measures a loose .035 :: is this safe to shoot or should I visit a gun smith first? The gun looks great and well taken care of. Anybody know if Euro Arms are any good? Any input on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks eace:

 

[Rebel]

Well first off, that .035 barrel cylinder gap is a bit excessive. Next, being a brass frame, you will need to keep your powder charges down in the light range. The brass frames i have dealt with have a tendency to warp with heavy loads, tying up the cylinder from turning. But mostly i would be concerned about that barrel cylinder gap. .004-.008 is more like it.

 

Is the "gap" actually slop in the frame? Is the axle post that the cylender rotates around sloppy and wobbling in the frame to create the gap?

Is the brass frame warped, but the post still tight, causing the excessive gap?

If you have wobble in the post or frame warpage it is time to hang the pistol on the wall!

I am afraid that .30 gap is going to cause "spitting" of lead through the gap, excess flash out the side and a tremendous amount of "blast".

I know several people who are carrying lead around in their "support hand" due to spitting from much tighter barrels than .30 gap.

Even if the frame is still tight you are not going to like what has to be done to close this gap. You are definately not going to want to pay what you will be charged by a smith to do the work. It will be more than the $100 Cabellas charges for this pistol. In fact, you will put more than $100 of your own time into it to properly refit the gun!

I usually will not give up on a gun easily, but I have battled this problem before. Colt desighn guns are percision instruments, although rugged. The correction is percision fitting, filing perfectly square and miking constantly on the bottom lug of the barrel and "slot". Not a job for the impatient, clumbsy, or a "bout good enough" attitude.

One problem often leads to the exposure of another in solving gap problems. I have done many and the result is usually putting $500 of labor into a $100 gun.

My vote is to send Cabellas a check for $100 and play with a new gun, hang this one on the wall with it and call them a set. This is unusual advice from me. I will usually salvage a gun at all cost. You have a real safty issue for others standing nearby as well as yourself!

:imo:

Ever seen a revolver barrel go downrange?

 

[smokepole4me]

Thanks Rebel and Ghost I really appreciate the help. I disassembled the gun last night and the center post that the cylinder revolves on is solid no movement at. I did a total cleaning and reassembled it. Now for some reason the gap is gone :: Now the problem I seem to have is that the top of the barrel to cylinder is so close that I cant even get a piece of paper to slip in between and the bottom of the barrel is at .006 not a true alignment. Does it sound like a warped frame? I should mention that I have only had the gun a week and last night was the first time I disassembled it and cleaned, I did notice that the wedge pin easily with finger pressure came out. When I put it back I did drive it with a rawhide hammer and then set the screw tight. I have learned that My next revolver will be a steel frame. Thanks so much eace:

 

[Rebel]

If the barrel wedge was loose that could have been the cause of the gap. May also have been some crud in the hole the cylinder pin goes into that you got out when you cleaned it. As far as no gap at the top and .oo6 at the bottom now, you might try backing the wedge out just a little and see if you get a gap both top and bottom. My best suggestion would be to get the steel framed gun and hang that one on the wall. You will have a lot less headaches with a GOOD steel framed gun. Also, unless you just want a Colt copy, you will have less problems with a Remington copy. Usually they are more accurate than the Colt's too, but not always. JMO

 

I'm going to agree with Reb on this one. You are having way too much trouble here.

Stop and really inspect the parts and their relationship to each other. Look at what holds what in place. The pin through the Barrel assembly, the preasure and possible angle of the wedge as it pulls the parts together, the little pins that locate the barrel lug at the bottom of the frame, the recess of the cylender into the back of the frame. Was the gun on full cock or half cock or hammer down when you assembled it?

You solve these problems through thorough study of the design, parts relationsghips and observation of what is happening wrong in the secquences.

This gun should go back together the same way every time. There should be no variation in how far through the slot the wedge goes, how much preasure it takes, top gap, bottom gap etc.

If this is a new gun part of it could be written off as burrs or chip that should not be present. Your cleaning could have just moved the crud from one place to the other. This inconsistancy is almost impossible to diagnose from long distance, but it sounds suspiciously like pure old excessive wear on the barrel frame assembly. If the gun is new, extremely bad QC from the plant. Accept that these brass frame .44 colts on the '51 pattern are some of the cheapest guns available today. QC is doubtful and buying a used copy a risk.

I would hesitate to load this one up. Things might get really wobbley at the first hammer-fall. At the least, your second shot will impact no where near the first, the third in another county. That's what happens when a pistol changes shape each time it is fired.

Remington .44 is stronger, and often more accurate due to the more "acceptable" sighting system. They do seem to come back and pop my second finger of the trigger hand, with the trigger guard, in a manner that the Colt does not. The Colt grip rotates in my hand better.

 

[smokepole4me]

Thanks Rebel and Ghost I think this one will look real good on the wall, I am going to see if I can find a new Remington and just go with that. Thank you both very much your help and advice is greatly appreciated! :thumbsup:

 

[Rebel]

No problem on the advise. Would just hate to see a fellow shooter take a chance on being hurt by an unsafe revolver. Take care.

 

[Zonie]

I have found that on the Colt style replicas if the barrel pin is driven in with too much force, it will cause them to lock the cylinder up. This has happened on my steel frame Uberti (which is not a cheap replica) and I have just had to learn that the wedge should be driven in so it is firmly in place but not pounded into position.
I have never had a problem with shooting any of my Colt replicas which have this tendency. They don't seem to loosen up after repeated firings.

As for the .035 gap, yes, that is a lot more than it should be, but I think you found the problem with the barrel keys loosness.

By the way, from some of the pictures of originals made in the South during the CW, you can see that some of them had even worse gaps. That doesn't make it good, but it is kinda PC.

 

I would suggest, if you are diving into the dark side (it's addictive)to get a copy of R. Chicoine's "Gunsmithing Guns of the Old West" from the library, or buy it on Amazon for about $ 15.00.

It details very good all of the functions, problems, and trouble-shootings of cap and ball and BP cartridge revolvers, as good as BP lever-action rifles. Better than a package of Aspirin to cure your headaches.

 

[crockett]

Everyone has given good advise but you alone are in a position to examine the gun and figure out the short comings. I am a nut about having percussion revolvers work properly. The mechanism is much the same as the Colt SSA 1873 and if you get a book on tuning that revolver a lot of the information can be applied to the 1851. The timing on almost all replicas is not that great. Fortunately these guns are inexpensive so have fun. You may want to order a new hand, etc from Dixie and eventually fine tune the gun yourself.
The wedge ought to pull everything together. If the wegde is loose you need a new wedge or peen the old one to make it a little fatter. If the cylinder gap is excessive you can stone the area where the two pins go into the holes but you may need to then deepen the holes. Be careful in all this. Normally one adjustment in one area throws everything off in another.
Spitting lead can come from an excessive gap but a cylinder that doesn't line up with the barrel can also cause trouble. There are range rods to check this but I have never heard of anyone doing this on a percussion revolver. In any event, if the gun isn't spitting lead then enjoy the gun and have fun. It is my understanding that a lot of the brass frame guns with an open top eventually shot loose. With a steel frame 36 Navy you can cramp in 20 or more grains of FFFg and you can probably better that with the 44 caliber. I would go light however in the interest of safety.
It's your gun and only you can analze what to do. A lot of guns are damaged by over zealous gunsmiths so go slow. ::

 

[smokepole4me]

I want to thank every one who has helped me in this problem your advice and expertise and common sense is greatfully appreciated I am so glad that I belong to this forum as there are so many wonderful people who are willing to help out. You are all SUPER GREAT! Thanks so much :thumbsup:

 

[rogden]

I came to the same realization when I reassembled my first Colt (an Uberti 1847 Walker) and got a HUGE gap. I had no manual to go by and didn't know about this web group, so I took it apart and reassembled it again. This time the cylinder was so tight it would not rotate at all. It finally got through my somewhat thick skull that the only "variable" was how far I had driven the wedge in. Sure enough, backing it off slightly allowed the cylinder to turn freely while still maintaining a very tight gap.