Returning to Cap & Ball revolvers

[arcticap]

Below is the photo and description of the washer fix method that was originally posted by a gunsmith named "rifle" on thehighroad.
Notice that he provides the size of the bushing that's needed.
He also wrote that it's important that the nipples don't contact the bushing and cause a chain fire, so the nipples should be shortened.

"Fuzzy but gets the idea across. The thin steel backplate can be seen around the frames recoil ring. So with the recoil shield thin steel backplate installed a person can buy a cheaper Colt and make it last as long as a steel framed as long as it isn't overloaded or the wedge installed incorrectly and the arbor is pulled loose.


A brass framed revolver can be made to last almost indefinitely if used juduciously and not over loaded. By over loaded I mean the same loads that would be an over load for a steel framed revolver. A brass framed revolver can handle the same manufacturer recommended loads as the equivilent revolver in steel framed. The revolver has to have a small modification to it to increase it's longevity.

The modification is to acquire a "thin rimmed bushing" from an auto store or tractor repair store or a good hardware store. The size to get that usually fits with less filing is 7/8ths by 1 3/8ths in 14 gauge. This thin steel bushing can be made to closely fit around the recoil shields "ring of brass" that the cylinder recoils into on it's rearward travel when the gun is fired. That ring the Colts have is to insure the capped nipples don't contact the recoil shield(frame behind the cylinder) and cause chain fire. If that thin ring is bolstered or protected by the bushing then the gun doesn't acquire the peens in the ring that dent(six dents in the ring where the cylinder area between the nipples contact the ring when the gun fires and the cylinder recoils) and give the gun the overly large cylinder gap the brass framed revolvers are known to acquire easily. The thin steel bushing is installed around the frames recoil "ring" to protect it. The steel bushing doesn't deform and thus protects the frames ring from deforming. The bushing has a large hole in it like a large thin washer. It's installed on the recoil shield of the gun around the recoil ring by soldering it in place. The procedure for fitting and soldering the steel bushing "backplate" takes maybe an hour. Just the bushing and a small file and a means to solder( 60/40 acid core solder works really easy and does a good job but low temp silver solder is good too) is all you need. With that thin steel backplate installed(the size mentioned above is actually a couple of .001's thicker than the standard ring on the brass framers(Ubertis and San Marcos) so until the gun breaks in(takes a long time) the brass recoil ring is never contacted by the cylinder recoiling into it since the cylinder recoils into the steel backplate made and soldered on the frame. The only thing to be sure to do if you install the thin steel backplate around the frames recoil ring of brass is to shorten the nipples some. The capped nipples can't contact the new thin steel backplate or they can cause chain fire. There is usually enough hammer nose to reach the shortened nipples. Shorten and reshape the nipples cones by putting them in a drill and filing them. Shortening the nipples can be easily facilitated by simply rebating the shoulder or "seat" more that the nipples seat down onto."

 

[robinsroost]

I have two .44 caliber C&B pistols, a stainless 1858 and a brass framed 1851. Neither are historically or period correct but I don't care. I load 20 grains of 3fg in the brass frame and 30 grains of 3fg in the stainless and they are both fun to shoot. I bought the 58' when I hunted the marshes for deer and hogs, when I lived in Florida, and the 51' because I like the way it looks and feels in my hand. If you don't like that, I don't care. Keep yer powder dry...……..robin

 

[8 BORE]

We dont care if they are period correct. We like then all. If they shoot good and you like them thats all that matters. Brass or steel Colt or Remington.

 

[M. De Land]

Below is the photo and description of the washer fix method that was originally posted by a gunsmith named "rifle" on thehighroad.
Notice that he provides the size of the bushing that's needed.
He also wrote that it's important that the nipples don't contact the bushing and cause a chain fire, so the nipples should be shortened.

View attachment 2160

"Fuzzy but gets the idea across. The thin steel backplate can be seen around the frames recoil ring. So with the recoil shield thin steel backplate installed a person can buy a cheaper Colt and make it last as long as a steel framed as long as it isn't overloaded or the wedge installed incorrectly and the arbor is pulled loose.


A brass framed revolver can be made to last almost indefinitely if used juduciously and not over loaded. By over loaded I mean the same loads that would be an over load for a steel framed revolver. A brass framed revolver can handle the same manufacturer recommended loads as the equivilent revolver in steel framed. The revolver has to have a small modification to it to increase it's longevity.

The modification is to acquire a "thin rimmed bushing" from an auto store or tractor repair store or a good hardware store. The size to get that usually fits with less filing is 7/8ths by 1 3/8ths in 14 gauge. This thin steel bushing can be made to closely fit around the recoil shields "ring of brass" that the cylinder recoils into on it's rearward travel when the gun is fired. That ring the Colts have is to insure the capped nipples don't contact the recoil shield(frame behind the cylinder) and cause chain fire. If that thin ring is bolstered or protected by the bushing then the gun doesn't acquire the peens in the ring that dent(six dents in the ring where the cylinder area between the nipples contact the ring when the gun fires and the cylinder recoils) and give the gun the overly large cylinder gap the brass framed revolvers are known to acquire easily. The thin steel bushing is installed around the frames recoil "ring" to protect it. The steel bushing doesn't deform and thus protects the frames ring from deforming. The bushing has a large hole in it like a large thin washer. It's installed on the recoil shield of the gun around the recoil ring by soldering it in place. The procedure for fitting and soldering the steel bushing "backplate" takes maybe an hour. Just the bushing and a small file and a means to solder( 60/40 acid core solder works really easy and does a good job but low temp silver solder is good too) is all you need. With that thin steel backplate installed(the size mentioned above is actually a couple of .001's thicker than the standard ring on the brass framers(Ubertis and San Marcos) so until the gun breaks in(takes a long time) the brass recoil ring is never contacted by the cylinder recoiling into it since the cylinder recoils into the steel backplate made and soldered on the frame. The only thing to be sure to do if you install the thin steel backplate around the frames recoil ring of brass is to shorten the nipples some. The capped nipples can't contact the new thin steel backplate or they can cause chain fire. There is usually enough hammer nose to reach the shortened nipples. Shorten and reshape the nipples cones by putting them in a drill and filing them. Shortening the nipples can be easily facilitated by simply rebating the shoulder or "seat" more that the nipples seat down onto."

The recoil shield is designed to arrest the cylinder rear word movement on the raised area of the recoil shield just outside of the ratchet face well not any of the outer cylinder orbit. You have already stated the reason in having to shorten the nipples. The other reason is the lock pin protrusion between each cylinder on the open frame guns. It seems to me that it would be much easier and in keeping with the original design perimeters, to steel bush the same area of the frames recoil shield that is imprinted by the rear of the cylinder.

 

[nightwolf1974]

Clearly you understand they require a lighter load. That was a large part of my asking. No point in spending any more on something you wouldn’t benefit from regardless.

Speaking of opinion, I, too, like the looks of the brass as well. One gun I’ve been interested in is the Spiller. Just something about it I’m drawn to. A bit low on my list, but on it for sure.

I’m a bit curious about caps messing with your ‘58. I have a 2013 Pietta and it’s been a trooper once I found it worked well with Rem #10’s and Ballistol on the cylinder pin.

Will you be looking for another Ruger or maybe something else?

I never had a '58 Remington myself...I shot a friend's for awhile when I was trying to decide on the Rem. or Colt styles. Out of the 100+ rounds I shot I had that problem maybe 15 or 20 times, so it kinda soured me on the Rem. I love the feel of the Rem...but I couldn't get past that.
I'm keeping my eyes open for a ROA, but people consider them "collectors items" now and the last one I saw for sale at a gun shop was $1100.00! I had the 1976 blued ANNIVERSARY MODEL, a 7.5" stainless, and the 5.5" stainless. Now I think if I can find one, I'm going for the 7.5" stainless model.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Blackie Thomas has a new vid out on “frame stretch” on the brassers guys:

 

[fireman1]

House fire suck...no if and or but's about it. Sorry OP that is terrible.

Let me give you a little advice I got almost 24 years ago when I started in this business. Get an old refrigerator. They hold up surprisingly well to fire. I've on somewhere between 300-400 working structure fires and I am always surprised at how well the contents of the fridge hold up. Toss a clasp on it with a lock and it is a good place to store BP revolvers, powder etc. Stuff that you may not have room for in the safe.

Don't forget to toss a can of desiccant in it.

 

[fireman1]

Well said, man. Nothing wrong with the brassers and if that’s what OP wants, he’ll be well served. They are fun guns!

Pretty all guns are fun! 'cept High Points, Lorcins, Jennings etc.

 

[arcticap]

The recoil shield is designed to arrest the cylinder rear word movement on the raised area of the recoil shield just outside of the ratchet face well not any of the outer cylinder orbit. You have already stated the reason in having to shorten the nipples. The other reason is the lock pin protrusion between each cylinder on the open frame guns. It seems to me that it would be much easier and in keeping with the original design perimeters, to steel bush the same area of the frames recoil shield that is imprinted by the rear of the cylinder.

The inside ring is a much smaller area in size to absorb the impact of the cylinder when fired I guess, whereas the larger outer ring would provide a much broader area to absorb the impact, lessening the concentration of the impact force.
Also, the ratchet teeth would be absorbing the impact with steel on steel, possibly causing wear on the ratchet teeth, yes?
The last critique could be that the inner ring is very close to the arbor, and removing material from there to install a ring could affect the strength or longevity of the arbor anchor.
I have seen someone insert a steel washer/bushing into the inner ring, but I don't think that he was aware of the washer fix for the outer ring. Using the flatter, broader surface of the outer rear of the cylinder to absorb the impact of battering would seem to be a safer and less intrusive method.
However, the other method may also work.
AFAIK the guy who did install an inner ring did not report back about how it functioned long term, and it wasn't very long ago that he installed it on a brand new gun.
But in general I do agree with you that there are different ways to skin a cat.
If I had to choose which fix to employ, I would probably choose the washer method since shortening the nipples wouldn't be such a bad trade off in order to save the ratchet teeth from any steel on steel battering.
And because the outer washer fix seems to have already been successfully employed.

 

[M. De Land]

The inside ring is a much smaller area in size to absorb the impact of the cylinder when fired I guess, whereas the larger outer ring would provide a much broader area to absorb the impact, lessening the concentration of the impact force.
Also, the ratchet teeth would be absorbing the impact with steel on steel, possibly causing wear on the ratchet teeth, yes?
The last critique could be that the inner ring is very close to the arbor, and removing material from there to install a ring could affect the strength or longevity of the arbor anchor.
I have seen someone insert a steel washer/bushing into the inner ring, but I don't think that he was aware of the washer fix for the outer ring. Using the flatter, broader surface of the outer rear of the cylinder to absorb the impact of battering would seem to be a safer and less intrusive method.
However, the other method may also work.
AFAIK the guy who did install an inner ring did not report back about how it functioned long term, and it wasn't very long ago that he installed it on a brand new gun.
But in general I do agree with you that there are different ways to skin a cat.
If I had to choose which fix to employ, I would probably choose the washer method since shortening the nipples wouldn't be such a bad trade off in order to save the ratchet teeth from any steel on steel battering.
And because the outer washer fix seems to have already been successfully employed.

If you pull out the cylinder you will notice the bearing area in not the ratched face itself, as in solid frame guns, but rather the area just out side the ratchet teeth that corresponds to the raised area on the frame recoil shield. This is what imprints first and allows the teeth in the ratchet face to finally make contact against the frame at the bottom of the ratchet well.
In steel frame guns this raised area will support the cylinders recoil induced, rear word movement. In brass framed guns this raise area imprints and lets the cylinder move to the rear.
I propose to remove part of this imprinted brass and replace it with steel which is silver soldered in place bringing it back to it's original design configuration. It should then be nearly as strong as a steel frame gun.

 

[M. De Land]

Blackie Thomas has a new vid out on “frame stretch” on the brassers guys:

Apparently Blacky has not realized that the raised area around the ratchet well is supposed to be the bearing and support surface for the rear movement of the cylinder. The ratchet teeth only imprint the bottom of the ratchet well when the raised area has been peened back from the cylinders impact.
If you pull the cylinder out and look at the corresponding wear marks on it, that match up with the recoil shield raised surface, just out side the ratchet orbit , just under the nipple and safety pin orbit, you will see the designed cylinder bearing face. If the raised surface is built back up with steel I don't think the imprint of the ratchet at the bottom of the well would need to be remove, only dress up a bit to clear.
As far as the hand, it pushes the cylinder forward as well as upward and as the cylinder sets back it has to push the ratchet teeth clear of the imprint before it can raise to the next chamber. The restored recoil shield bearing surface should clear the ratchet teeth of the imprint.

 

[8 BORE]

This subject is getting old and real boring.
You all have fun. See ya !

 

[arcticap]

Apparently Blacky has not realized that the raised area around the ratchet well is supposed to be the bearing and support surface for the rear movement of the cylinder. The ratchet teeth only imprint the bottom of the ratchet well when the raised area has been peened back from the cylinders impact.
If you pull the cylinder out and look at the corresponding wear marks on it, that match up with the recoil shield raised surface, just out side the ratchet orbit , just under the nipple and safety pin orbit, you will see the designed cylinder bearing face. If the raised surface is built back up with steel I don't think the imprint of the ratchet at the bottom of the well would need to be remove, only dress up a bit to clear.
As far as the hand, it pushes the cylinder forward as well as upward and as the cylinder sets back it has to push the ratchet teeth clear of the imprint before it can raise to the next chamber. The restored recoil shield bearing surface should clear the ratchet teeth of the imprint.

I very much appreciate that info. and thanks for the clarification.

 

[bigted]

Been awhile since i read such snarky comments in a post. Rodwha is NOT the one outta line here.

If a man can not comment here without worries that some "wish they knew" would call them down needlessly , then this forum may just go to the toads as other forums have. These are the offences i should think would atract the attention of the moderators instead of some rather smallish infractions i could call attention to.

New guys should read more and comment less in some cases

 

[Grumpa]

Well put, bigted. But some of the offending comments were not made by newbies.
Rodwha's question was simple and innocent enough, and did not deserve the personal attack that ensued. Such attacks are not allowed on this Forum, and no one benefits from them.

I do not own a brass frame revolver, but I understand their appeal to aesthetics, financial considerations, and historic similarity (although, as pointed out, neither of the models mentioned existed historically - sometimes close is good enough). I also enjoy the discussion of attempts to make them stronger. Those who feel differently can exit the discussion at any time without offending anyone (and without the need to announce their departure).

Richard/Grumpa

 

[bang]

After losing ALL my firearms in a house fire in 2014, I'm just starting to get back into Cap & Ball revolvers.
After Christmas, I'm ordering a pair of Pietta brass frame 1851 Colt Navy revolvers (in .44 cal) and a Pietta brass frame 1851 Navy revolver w/4.875" barrel. I can't wait!

A

I also have a brass framer with the cylinder impressions on the recoil shield. Read an article somewhere about using a rimmed bushing behind the cylinder as a fix, but have no idea what a rimmed bushing looks like.

Rimed bushing has a flange or shoulder so it can be fitted in guaranteed none movement one direction. Drill and ream for bushing then counterbore for flange or step ream for shoulder.

 

[Denny B]

I have 2 1858 Remington reproductions one stainless and one blue with steel frame. I have always shot 30 grain of fff and a felt wad. Never had any trouble and they still shoot great. They are both Pietta's 44 cal.