Rice barrel

[54ball]

Hello,
I'm thinking about building an Issac Haynes Rifle from TOTW. Is the Rice match barrel a better choice than the Coletrain?
Thanks

 

[Flintandsteel]

54,
With out a doubt. Colerain is a good barrel, but it is NOT as good as Getz or Rice.
IMHO

They are both better finished, and better machined.

 

[LRB]

What smallpatch said, and then some!!!

 

[Slowpoke]

54,
If I could make a recommendation... First get a Rice Barrel, obvious, but I would get one with square bottom rifling. Recently in my small gun building community we have run into some trouble with the round bottom type. By "trouble" I mean not grouping as well as the square bottomed.

 

[Mike Brooks]

When I've asked for a recomendation ,John Getz has always recommended square grooves for target work. He seems to think they are slightly more accurate, why I don't know. The round groove is more historically correct. I personally can't tell the difference in accuracy between them..

 

[DrTimboone]

I have built two guns with Colerain barrels. I have looked at and handled Rice and Getz barrels at CLA. The Rice barrels were certainly much nicer finished and would not require the draw filing that the Colerain does. So My question is: What, specifically makes the Rice and Getz barrels better than Colerain?? Not arguing..just trying to learn what to look for in barrels.. :bow:

I understand Getz barrels are very hard to come by as they are very slow on their delvery. Rice seems to be in stock at Barbies and other places with no problems??

See, I been thinkin about building a Chambers kit next..his smooth rifle. It only comes with a Longhammack barrel I believe.... so.. Hhhmmm?? :hmm:

 

[LRB]

The Rice barrels are smoother inside as well. Rice and Getz are bored, reamed, and cut with more precision. The Rice is also stress relieved, twice I believe, and the bore finished with a carbide plug to insure better uniformity and smoothness. Colrains are six groove, Getz and Rice are seven, which could be a factor in PRB accuracy, but I am not sure it would mean any practical difference. As I see it, geometricly, in a given caliber, with equal depth of round bottom groove, placeing seven grooves in the space that six might occupy, would give a sharper angle at the edge of the land, and the extra groove would also offer that much more to grip the PRB. This can however, be over done, as in the case of the first TC's that hit the market with, as I recall, twelve grooves. Their accuracy was pretty bad, and within a year TC went to less grooves. On the other hand, I may be as full of it as a Christmas turkey, but I will say, I have experienced enough bad luck with Colrains, that I will not buy any more, nor recommend them. It would seem that many suffer from noticeable loose, and tight spots, and roughly reamed bores. I have had to lap two of them, after all else failed, just to be able to put all shots somewhere in the black at fifty yards, I did however, use one in a gun a few years back that is a one hole group tack driver, but I would have to regard it as an exception, and not the norm.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Rice barrels are NOT reamed, hence the reason for draging a carbide ball thru the bore to iron out the boring marks, has nothing to do with uniformity.
Please explain how Rice stress relieves barrels, I've always been baffled how that's done....

 

[Slowpoke]

From what I know about barrel making, Rice doesn't stress relieve the barrels, the blanks are stress relieved when he acquires them. I think it's has to do with heating and cooling. I could care less if they dip them in chocolate, just give me a barrel that consistent from one barrel to the next. Getz and Rice do that every time I've done business with them.

 

Alot of very good barrels out there. I have never had the pleasure of shooting a Rice barrel, but an aquaintance found his to be very accurate. In my probably not typical experience I have found a nearly inverse relationship between cost and accuracy. Limited sample, probably not representative...my most accurate barrel was a cheap one by H&A, second was a Green River, third is a three-way tie between Getz, Colerain and a barrel whose make I am not sure of. It would be a perfectly inverse relation except for another barrel which is my worst in accuracy, and whose brand name I won't mention because it raised the ire of someone on another site to the point I started to fear some sort of physical retaliation. Now let me to be quick to say that the accuracy of my third tier is still very good, and to be fair, I have not had the chance to completely work up the most accurate load for the Getz--which I must say is a beautifully made barrel. I know fellows who swear by Colerains for target work. Mine is jes' fine, thank ye. It always humors me to hear custom builders complain about barrels that need draw-filing as being "lower grade"--our ancestors would have guffawed. It is the bore that matters in a barrel.

 

[LRB]

Mike, I beg to differ. The carbide ball is described as a bore sizing die to insure "Dimensional continuity", their wording, and is used after the rifling is cut. I don't care if they are reamed or not, but if not, they must use a very fine boring tool. The barrels, or blanks, are heat treated in an electric oven. Basicly, they are annealed. By the way, how are you doing with that type G kit you mentioned awhile back? I am very interested.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Well, the only reason Rice started to use the carbide ball at all is because they couldn't figure out how to ream a barrel to a satisfactory finish. I hear lots of people swear by Rice bartrels, so their system obviously is a winner.
Type G's.....The stock blanks are off to Fred Miller for barrel inleting, and I'll be working on the stock masters this summer. I used a plural here because I'm recreating Reeves Goehrings Carolina gun and a type G. They have a few parts in common, so I figured I'd do both.

 

[LRB]

Mike, my experience with cheap barrels, lets say low grade, is somewhat similar. The most accurate ML I have ever owned was a TC Hawken in .45 that I bought in 1973. It would put five shots in 1/2" group at 50 yrds. A year later I was a dealer, and sold one that would do 3/8", and do it consistantly. To do so in each case required a .451 ball, .011 flannel patch, and 60gr of Dupont fffg. So much for "TC's are not accurate with PRB in a 1-48 twist."
And I don't mind draw fileing at all. I think many folks just try too hard to get every little mark out. Rice offers their swamped barrels at $185.oo, if you want to file them yourself, but only offer those with square rifling for some reason. Take care, Wick

 

[6mmppc]

Rice barrels are NOT reamed, hence the reason for draging a carbide ball thru the bore to iron out the boring marks, has nothing to do with uniformity.
Please explain how Rice stress relieves barrels, I've always been baffled how that's done....

Mike,
LC gave me the nickle tour of his shop a couple of years ago. I am almost positive that he showed me how the barrels were reamed but maybe not. I do know that he showed me his stress relief process. The barrels are put in a large furnace that looked a lot like a large water heater that the top could be removed. The barrels are stood on end, the top is closed and the unit heats up to a certain temp. and left there to remove the stresses built up in the barrels. I can not remember at what stage this is done but I think it was before drilling and maybe again after they were reamed but can not swear to it.

I used to be a benchrest shooter and Hart barrels were the top of the line. I once talked with Robert Hart about what made his barrels so accurate and he said stress relief was an important part of making an accurate center fire barrel. Not sure if its that important in muzzleloaders but I would assume the same principle would apply to both types of barrels.

I have shot Getz and Rice and both have done extremely well. I use Rice because I can not get Getz barrels. I know the finish on the Rice barrels that I have had are better than any other maker. If I could never own anything but Rice barrels it would not bother me at all.

Dennis

 

[Mike Brooks]

LC has the gift of gab and is a hell of a salesman that will tell you what you want to hear. Nothing wrong with that, he's in the business of selling barrels. I've never used a Rice barrel, but I've looked down the bore of several and they look good to me. I've got a Rice barrel in the shop that's going into a gun I'm doing for a customer this fall. I have no worries about the quality of the barrel, and I'm sure it will shoot fine. I wouldn't have any qualms about using a Rice barrel in a gun I build for myself either. (like that's ever going to happen :shake: )
Rice bores first, then profiles the outside, then rifles, then pulls a carbide ball thru . the carbide ball removes the tooling marks from the gun drill that a reamer would normally take out. I have issues about the fact that as the over sized carbide ball is pulled thru the barrel it is displacing metal. Where is that displaced metal going? It seems to me you'd be creating a wire edge on your rifling lands. Wouldn't it also harden the area it's just been pulled thru?
Ask him why he doesn't make smooth bores or do choke bores....... :winking:
I wonder how hot you have to get these barrels to stress relieve them? Wouldn't they have to be placed perfectly vertical during the process to insure they will be properly relieved? I guess I still don't get it. I have heard of a technique that is totally the oposite of LC's stress relief methode. Some chunk gunners are having their barrels professionally "super frozen" for a lack of a better term. They seem to think their barrels are completly "dead" after this process.....I don't really get this process either. :haha:

 

[Birddog6]

Colerain, Rice, Getz, doesn'ty matter to me as far as shooting goes. ALL of them can shoot more accurate than I can hold them...........

IMHO, Rice definately has the upper hand of looks & finish, inside & out. The Getz & Colerains I have had were about equal in outside appearance, with the Getz having a little smoother bore.

The Colerain I can have in 3 days & usually the Rice in a week or so. Both have always served me very well. The Getz is a good barrel but past experience has taught me not to wait for one.

 

[Hoyt]

I agree with Birddog..for me it's all about who's got what I want and how fast can I get it. I can't see the sights and target good enough to tell the difference.

 

[Mike Brooks]

I can't see the sights and target good enough to tell the difference.

Yeah, me too.

 

[John Strong]

I just had a .58 built using a rice barrel. It shoots great. I love it. I've had real good luck with green mountain strait barrels, I might just try one of their swamped ones to see what they are like. I doubt you would have any problems with any of the makers mentioned in your post, they are all good quality. Good luck

 

[dek]

I don't like to contradict anyone, but Rice barrels ARE REAMED!! I don't know where the idea that they are not reamed comes from. I was at the Rice shop today and can verify the fact that they ream each and every barrel. As for stress relieving, the barrel blanks are heated in an oven and cooled, thus relieving the stress in the steel from being formed into a bar. The carbide ball is run through the barrel to "iron" out any high and low spots so that there will be no tight or loose spots. This is the same proceedure that Douglas used when they were making BP barrels. I think these are the finest barrels on the market at this time. :v