Rich Hollis & Sons Shotgun, English Made

[Artificer]

Foley
Has a fellow Brit I must say you forgot to add one main saying such has a brace of pheasants, grouse , or partridge .
Feltwad

Sorry for going off topic, but that brought back fond memories of my first visit to the British National Agricultural and Exhibition Centre at Stoneleigh Park, Warwickshire. I had made a point to study some typical British verbiage before that first trip to the UK and whilst walking around, I spotted a gentleman with a Matched Brace of Dalmatian Dogs. I had lost a Dalmatian who was extremely dear to me a few years before and when I approached him, I said, "Oh, what a gorgeous matched brace of Dalmatians!" Of course with a Southern American accent, he realized I wasn't British. I then asked permission to pet them and he granted it. They were Aunt and Niece Females. I think he was surprised I knew the term "matched brace" and we had a most enjoyable conversation.

Thank you for sparking a very fond memory.

Gus

 

[jimirwin]

I have an Isaac Hollis & Sons sxs that I used to be the very first competitor in Texas to shoot a clean round of trap in the State shoot (1987). Nice gun, but not exactly a "best" gun. Never heard of Richard Hollis. My reference book mentions an R Hollis in Birmingham. The one shown is of modest quality, with a replaced hammer.

 

[Zonie]

I just looked up the 1/4 BSF thread and it does have a 26 tpi pitch. It also has a 55° thread form so using a 60° form typical of the UN and metric threads wouldn't work right. The British Whitworth thread also uses a 55° thread form.

Oh. The British also have a designated motorcycle thread series per the Cycle Engineers Institute. The threads from the 1/4" thru the 7/16" size are all 26 threads per inch so there is a 1/4-26, 5/16-26, 3/8-26 and a 7/16-26 thread series.

 

[hawkeye2]

" The British Whitworth thread also uses a 55° thread form." The crests and roots of the threads are also different.

"The British also have a designated motorcycle thread series per the Cycle Engineers Institute." Replaced by the British Standard Cycle thread series which uses a thread angle of 60°

"The British Standard Fine (BSF) thread has the same profile as the BSW thread form but was used when a finer pitch was required for a given diameter."

It only gets worse from here.

 

[Feltwad]

I have an Isaac Hollis & Sons sxs that I used to be the very first competitor in Texas to shoot a clean round of trap in the State shoot (1987). Nice gun, but not exactly a "best" gun. Never heard of Richard Hollis. My reference book mentions an R Hollis in Birmingham. The one shown is of modest quality, with a replaced hammer.

There were many family of Hollis working in Birmingham some were gun makers and some gun stockers . The family Richard Hollis & Sons 1832-1840 gun and pistol makers at 40 Loveday Street also at other addresses.
Feltwad

 

[GREENSWLDE]

Your shot gun nipple thread could well be an Old BRITISH ASSOCIATION Size0 or 0BA.
This is 6m/m O/D by 25.4 TPI. 6m/m is 0.236"Imperial.
The pitch is 1.00 m/m .0.0394".Depth of thread is 0.600 m/m .0.024". Minor Dia.is 4.80 m/m. .0.189". The thread base & crest radius is o.1808 m/m. O.0715"..
Hope this helps..

OLD DOG.

 

[TFoley]

Foley
Has a fellow Brit I must say you forgot to add one main saying such has a brace of pheasants, grouse , or partridge .
Feltwad

I'm only 1/8th British, Sir, but I respect your sentiment and thank you for your valuable additions to my list

 

[TFoley]

Having visited the Midlands twice in the middle 90's for the World Muzzle Loading Championships, I got quite an enjoyable laugh and fond memories, thanks to your post. Thank You.

Gus

I'm happy to learn that you have good memories of Wedgnock and the activities that go on there. I hope that your visits were successful.

 

[TFoley]

Your shot gun nipple thread could well be an Old BRITISH ASSOCIATION Size0 or 0BA.
This is 6m/m O/D by 25.4 TPI. 6m/m is 0.236"Imperial.
The pitch is 1.00 m/m .0.0394".Depth of thread is 0.600 m/m .0.024". Minor Dia.is 4.80 m/m. .0.189". The thread base & crest radius is o.1808 m/m. O.0715"..
Hope this helps.. OLD DOG.

The use of BA, in my sixty years experience of employing threads of that form, tends these days to be limited to model engineering, my other principal hobby. There is nothing old in the current use of BA nuts and bolts, as around 95% of all Gauge 1 live steam locomotives built here in UK use those items. TMK, BA hex-head bolts are readily available sized down to 14 BA, VERY tiny indeed, and other BA bolt sizes are available with 'one size smaller' heads, to use where scale-sized bolts are required but with larger thread for more secure gripping. I'm looking right now at a pack of ten 8BA x 3/4" bolts with 10 BA hex heads - VERY useful.

 

[Feltwad]

You will find that BA thread is used mostly on lock work screws 6 and 4 most 2 BA for the lock nail 0 Ba for the standing breech.
Feltwad

 

[B Tom]

"if my gun was built with a metric nipple for export to France"

My experience working as a mechanic on British motorcycles and owning them too tells me that would never happen. They didn't bother to use US standard fasteners on the bikes they built to export to us so it's unlikely they bothered with a nipple on a shotgun in 1850. Have you looked into Whitworth threads yet? BTW a lot of British cars & Land Rovers were exported without regard to our threads too.

The only thing that comes close is the 15/64" diameter Small Whitworth Threads (55 Deg Thread Angle), however does not match the 0.016" thread depth and 26TPI on my gun nipple.

 

[B Tom]

Very much agree with Hawkeye2. As I vaguely remember, there was at least one other "sort of standardized" British Machine thread style (if not two more) besides the Whitworth threads, when this fowler was built. I would like to make it clear my phrasing of "sort of standardized" British Machine thread style" was due to the fact that there was still not much standardization of machine threads in Britain, or the U.S. for that matter, during this period. It was only after the British began using the "American Interchangeable Parts System of Manufacture" in the 1850's that British thread sizes became more standardized.

Also, confusion that period "Non Standard" INCH thread sizes/dimensions might have been Metric; has been going on for quite some time here in the U.S. Dixie Gun Works published this inaccurate information on early American screw threads in their catalogues since at least the 1960's and may still be doing it today. When Dixie first published this inaccurate information, though, there was not nearly the research done on period machine threads.

Gus

Ok Gus. Seems like the metric possibility is not likely.

 

[B Tom]

The standard nipple thread for British shotgun and sporting rifle from the beginning of the Percussion period was for 12bore and smaller 1/4 BSF and for the larger bore such has 8,6,4 was 9/32 BSF.
For the military type of weapon was much larger a whit worth type was used and the nipple took a top hat cap.In that period there were several makers of caps see advert
Feltwad

Ok, then my 0.235" diameter thread does not fit into that standardized beginning.

 

[B Tom]

AAMOI, ALL firearms made at the Royal small Arms Factory, Enfield Lock, subsequently called 'Enfields', and those made for the government contracts by LSA, BSA and others, used the so-called Enfield-pattern thread. This was carried on by Parker-Hale in their replication of the Enfield-series of firearms, in which the original patterns, jugs and gauges were used to ensure authenticity. The most obvious use of this unique thread can be found on the ramrod end, which has a thread-form unlike any other.

BSF, by the way, stands for British Standards, Fine and remains in use even today in certain applications, mainly electrical components. Mainstream British-built manufacturing of all kinds has been fully metric since 1971, when the metric system was supposed to have been adopted nationwide.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

That's why, over here, you will see ALL distances in miles, land in acres, beer in pints and ranges in yards Try telling a horseman that his horse is 2m high, or that hounds are found in tens, rather than 'couples', or try and buy ten eggs instead of a dozen [you'd have to change the shape of the egg-box, for a start....] Vehicle economy is in miles per gallon, and cars' engine outputs are in BHP, archery draw-weights are in pounds, and so is the strength of fishing line and climbing ropes...speed of airplanes is in MPH, flying heights are in feet, ships sail in knots over water that is so many fathoms deep. Tides are in feet and wind speed is in MPH. The railways have tracks 4ft 8 1/2" apart, too, and always will have.

No unique thread can be seen on my ramrod.

 

[B Tom]

I have an Isaac Hollis & Sons sxs that I used to be the very first competitor in Texas to shoot a clean round of trap in the State shoot (1987). Nice gun, but not exactly a "best" gun. Never heard of Richard Hollis. My reference book mentions an R Hollis in Birmingham. The one shown is of modest quality, with a replaced hammer.

That's him, Rich Hillis in Birmingham. How can you tell the hammer is not original?

 

[B Tom]

I just looked up the 1/4 BSF thread and it does have a 26 tpi pitch. It also has a 55° thread form so using a 60° form typical of the UN and metric threads wouldn't work right. The British Whitworth thread also uses a 55° thread form.

Oh. The British also have a designated motorcycle thread series per the Cycle Engineers Institute. The threads from the 1/4" thru the 7/16" size are all 26 threads per inch so there is a 1/4-26, 5/16-26, 3/8-26 and a 7/16-26 thread series.

Zonie, those sizes are larger than my 0.235" diameter (approx. 15/64") which I cannot find with 26 TPI.

 

[B Tom]

Your shot gun nipple thread could well be an Old BRITISH ASSOCIATION Size0 or 0BA.
This is 6m/m O/D by 25.4 TPI. 6m/m is 0.236"Imperial.
The pitch is 1.00 m/m .0.0394".Depth of thread is 0.600 m/m .0.024". Minor Dia.is 4.80 m/m. .0.189". The thread base & crest radius is o.1808 m/m. O.0715"..
Hope this helps..

OLD DOG.

Although the 25.4 TPI comes close to my measurements, I am also measuring a minor diameter of 0.203" and depth of thread as 0.016" on my gun nipple. So this does not seem to match the Size0 or 0BA.

 

[B Tom]

Seems like my comment about a possible metric nipple on my English gun stimulated much feedback. Thanks to all. The message seems to be that I will not be able to find a #11 percussion cap (or even a musket cap) with a 0.235" diameter x 26 TPI thread for my gun (note: the actual measurement I got was more like 25.6 TPI). I am not to happy about that since I have been looking forward to trying out the gun.

 

[Artificer]

Seems like my comment about a possible metric nipple on my English gun stimulated much feedback. Thanks to all. The message seems to be that I will not be able to find a #11 percussion cap (or even a musket cap) with a 0.235" diameter x 26 TPI thread for my gun (note: the actual measurement I got was more like 25.6 TPI). I am not to happy about that since I have been looking forward to trying out the gun.

B Tom,

I can certainly understand your frustration, but from my experience as the Team Armourer for the U.S. International Muzzle Loading Team (including two World Championships), I assure you what you are going through is VERY common when attempting to shoot original civilian percussion rifles and guns. Almost every one of the original percussion civilian made guns/rifles of the period of your gun and the Team shot, had to have the nipples replaced/updated to a modern thread, etc. In some cases, custom made nipples had to be made.

Gus

 

[jlatz]

I have been using a 15 ga. double percussion J. Manton for a while at the club and Friendship trap range. My loads have been 2 1/2 drams of Triple 7 and an ounce of #7 shot. Sevens have around 10 to 20 percent more inertia than 7 and 1/2s. I use a thin over powder wad from Mike's wads. It is sort of like two over shot wads sandwiched together that seals well. Then a half of a regular cushion wad is used, then and ounce of shot and over powder wad. This functions quite well in breaking clays at 10 to 16 yards from the trap house. A good idea is to blow out the shotgun before using. Snap a couple of caps first. Then put down a two dram or so of black powder with and over shot wad on top. Fire that in a safe area. Then you can be generally assured the gun's barrel is cleared of cleaning oils and so forth. Then the regular load is used. I use Triple 7 in the original guns because it is easy to clean. On cleaning Ballistol is a good source. To remove leading Scotch Brite pads work. Yes, you would do well to "proof" before using. Or, have a good black powder gunsmith look the gun over before using.