Rifle Accuracy - how do you stand ?

Just going over a quote from May 6th, 1819. This exercise took place while on Steven Long's Scientific Adventure of 1819. The rifle's taken were the 1803 Harpers Ferry, 1814 Contract rifle, 1817 pattern Rifles and Kentucky rifles. The government pattern .54 cal. were shooting .525" balls with cloth patch in ctgs.
: "The troops were classed and commensed shooting at targets with ball cartidges at which they continued untill(sic) the 22nd daily practising. Those who hit a circul (sic) of three inches diameter off hand at fifty yards three times in six were raised from the awkward squad to the 2nd class. Those who can hit the same mark one hundred yards three times in six were raised to the first class. They make rapid improvement. There are but few who are not in the first class."
: These were quie high standards, but show us just how well the rifles of those days did indeed shoot. I recently saw an article in a coyboy acton shootig magazine, on the new 1803 Italian Harpers Ferry .54. The group at 50yds. fired off the bench was in the 4 to 4 1/2" vicinity. It was claimed to be EXCELLENT Accuracy but obviously lacks the accuracy of the original piece by quite a measure, if this above quote from the journal can be trusted.
Daryl

 

" Only accurate rifles are intersting."
And that holds true for me. I'm an accuracy nut.
I don't care how pretty or plain a rifle is it's a moot point if the thing won't shoot.
Now accuracy is subjective isn't it?
Some consider 4" groups at 100 "good 'nuff". Well that depends. If the 4" group was made by a run-of-the-mill factory gun, not well loaded, then I suppose that's "good 'nuff". BUT! I want better.
A smooth bore musket with patched roundball that holds 4" at 100 is bragging material.
A well made muzzle laoder with good sights orta do better'n 4" if fed a proper diet.
All this from the bench of course.
My inexpensive Lyman Deerstalker with issued factory sights will hold 2.5" at 100 with 100 grain charges of Goex 2fg and darn near any good bullet, it really favors the PowerBelts in 245 grain weight.
It will shoot the 370 grain Maxi ball( nice name for a bullet what?) into 3" groups at 100 with consistancy.
This is a low budget rifle with not so good sights. That white globe front is as big as a bowling ball. :bull:
(well all most)
My Lyman 1:32 GPH wears Lyman peep sights and shoots a 335 grain sabot into 1" at 75 yards with 90 grains of 2fg. (that's the limit of my back yard range.)
On the other hand my custom used to be a .56 smoothie, now a rifled 1:48 .58 bullet shooter has never done better than 1.5" at 50 and that's disappointing to me. I expect clover leaf groups at 50.
My Bedford County flint .45 with Douglas barrel will ONE hole 5 shots at 50 yards. This is under 3/4" with fixed iron sights. It's a shooter!
So accuracy is subjective and relative.
I good rifle that shoots 5" at 100 yards is leaving my house real quick.
Others are tickled with groups like that.
My Zouave has never shot better than 1.5" at 50 and that too is disappointing.
In my opinion a good muzzle gun, after some load development should should 3" and under with hunting cahrges of powder.
Opinions please. ::

 

[roundball]

I have the same approach with my hunting charges using open sights, all calibers.
I buy packs of those 3" orange aim point stickers and must put all balls into that sticker out to 75yds sitting in a small chair simulating a treestand...so far, so good

 

[Deadeye]

Having taught firearms and shooting for yrs. I'd have a hard time believing that. Even with modern guns with scopes that will shoot under an inch benched, try shooting a 3" group offhand at 100 yds. Very few shooters can do it.
Deadeye

 

Being a competition shooter for over 30 years in position competition as well BP and other shooting sports, I whole heartedly agree with you that few shooters today can put 3 out of 6 rounds in a 3" circle at 100yds.-offhand. What I also know, it that the majority of BP shooters today are much better offhand shots than any of the guys I shot comptetition with. The reason for this is that BP shooters SHOOT from the STANDING position more than any other position. It's amazing what a bit of practice can do- it's amazing what 16 days of straight practise can do - as they did before qualifying for their classes.
: Recently, an original .50 Hawken was tested that put 5 shots into a 7/8" circle. Not too shabby for a rifle well over 100years old. As far as it's accuracy is concerned, it is merely normal accuracy for a muzzleloading rifle today- given a good barrel & shot by someone with experience.
; Something we all tend to forget is that these rifles and smoothbores were TOOLS in the 18th and 19th. Men lived by them & died by them. Another point, is that the poorest powder of that era was better than the best of today. This is something BP ctg. shooters know very well. Today's powder is dusty, low in power, and fouls to the extreme. Powders of the 19th century was clean, black, shiny,hard grains of moist burning, and produced minimal fouling in comparrison to ours. it was also much more accurate due to it's properties.
Daryl

 

Deadeye:
I agree with your acertion about very few shooters not being able to keep shots in a 3" circle at 100 yards offhand.
It's difficult, BUT there are those that practice and learn the fine art of true marksmanship.
I too was a firearms instructor for years. I taught revolver, semi-auto pistol, assualt rifle, sub-machine gun, gas launcher, scoped rifle, and the always dependable shotgun.
I've watched fellows with sub guns completely miss 3 "bad guy" targets with 9mm subguns at a mere 30 FEET with a whole stick of ammo, 20 to 30 rounds!
Goes to show you that "spray and pray" don't work.
You have to AIM the thing and go for 3 shot bursts. Ditto with the riot gun.
Since I was shooting ammo bought by the taxpayers I got in a LOT of shooting and when I switched to the then new Smith 4506 45acp. I could, from the prone, put all shots into a 10" circle at 100 yards!
I really need to do more offhand shooting with the flinters as I doubt I could hold 12" at 100 offhand today.
Oh, by the way I retired as Lieutenant in charge of S.W.A.T.
(disabled in the line actually) and TRUST me too many cops can't shoot worf a hoot!
They figure they have 14 shot 9mm's and they can blast thier way out of trouble. T'ain't so!
I'd rather have ONE well placed shot than 14 misses.
I carried a Smith 19 4" .357 for years and never felt undergunned with a six shot wheel gun.
True offhand marksmanship is a dying skill. :boohoo:

 

[Ohio Joe]

Three inch groups at 100 yards offhand is attainable, I have done it. Not to often, but nevertheless... Mind set as well as load and stance consistency play a big part... A proper fitting rifle that you are comfortable with and can shoulder the same for each shot is almost a must, if not a must... To achieve one, you have to master them all in my opinion... I probably couldn't ever do it again as my eyesight is not what it use to be... However, that is an excuse and if I would adjust to my aging short comings, I might be able to overcome that... I guess the mind set comes in to play here as well.

 

[Deadeye]

Maxi, I taught at a police academy so I know your right about how LE shoots, and your right a semi is usually more deadly than a subgun.
Ohio, Yes it can be done, I've done it many times and I've done it with a handgun offhand several times but can't do it every time,and I've been shooting just about every type of competition for over 50 yrs. have won over 1000 awards for shooting including a world record and for the last 40 yrs. that I've been a gunsmith I've done almost nothing else except work on guns, teach shooting and shoot competition and I still find it hard to keep shots in a 3"
circle at 100, course I'm thinking of keeping them all in,
1/2 of them would be easier but still beyond what most could learn to do in 2 or 3 weeks, especially with guns that
would be lucky to shoot in a foot at that distance.

 

Comnsidering the time and place, I'd hazzard a guess that most of those soldiers & scouts weren't new to shooting.
: It's amazing how many retired or practising firearms instructors there are here. For 15 years, I was a Provincial Firearms Instructor of Police and Corrections myself.
: In only two days of concentrated instruction on silouettes, + extra 'long range' instruction through the lunch hours for those interested, my perimeter security and riot squad members had no trouble hitting 2 or 3 out of 6 on 10" plates at 100yds with their .38's. We only allow double action shooting as well. I had some 'good' guys there. They weren't the 'run of the mill', so to speak & were genuinely interested in improving. I also spent a few years in the RCM Police, and out of the 165 member detachment where I served, there were only 3 of us who were shooters. That's bad, but I think probalby tipical for today, even. Many of the others HAD to be ORDERED to attend for qualificaiton and some didn't even qualify to carry restricted firearms(revolvers) I am NOT proud of that aspect of "The Force."
; When a 'member' I always felt undergunned with the .38, and therefore, I carried my own - descretly of course. It wasn't unlawful, just not an accepted practise.
Daryl

 

Amazing! Lot's of former instructors here.
I had the distinct pleasure of working with Massad Ayoob, popular writer, and police instructer, on at least 3 occasions.
I too have had to order officers to take the minimum manditory training hours and even then had to work with them closely to get them to score minimum to qualify.
The majority of police officers are not firearms savy and have no desire to be.
Pity, cause when the fertilizer hits the ventilator your handgun is the last resort to save your own skin!
Of course keep in mind something I learned early in the "mean streets", your firearm is ONLY a tool, the weapon is between your ears!

 

[Deadeye]

Maxi, I've also shot with Mas Ayoob many times as well as taken some of his classes. He's excellent shooter and instructor.

 

I used to absorb all his stuff- back in the '80's. I also have the .45ACP Annual Handbooks from '82,83&'85. Many of the articles are by Mas. They were very good books for customizing and one in particular had a great article on porting the barrel and slide which I did. His writing was quite impressive.
Daryl

 

As many posts do this one has acquired a life of its own. I was a cop back in the mid-late '70's and what I saw then evidently hasn't changed much. Most cops aren't and don't care to be firearms savvy as has been said frequently. I was and am and I always won my "Expert" badge and wore it proudly.

I don't much care for semi-autos except for the 1911. That isn't to say there aren't many good ones out there, I just don't care for them. I always carried a revolver and as has been said I never felt underarmed as a street cop. after I left law enforcement I became interested in long range handgunning with single action revolvers. As many of you know it is amazing what you can do at 200, 300 and even 400 yards with a good handgun and load THAT YOU KNOW!!! That capitalized statement cannot be overemphasized. Back when I was shooting a staggering amount of ammo a twelve inch square of steel was a "gimme" at 300 yards with a suitable rest. 400 yards was a stretch but I still managed about 60%. It canbe done but it don't come easy. Good, modern, scoped rifles at 500 yards with 2-3 inch groups off a rest are a piece of cake. Even my BPC rifles with iron sights will shoot minute of angle out to 600 yards. But that comes from doing.....and I did a lot of it. It isn't the instruments that are incapable.....it's us.

Vic

 

As back then, I still have a love affair with a Model 29 in 4". It is amazing, as you said, what can be done at long range, with a gun you now well.
: I spoke with Elmer several times in the early '70's, and have written correspondence with him as has well. He was the driving force for me to procure my first 4".44.
: HA!- we should, perhaps get back on track, even though this is sort-of following the know tha gun - attain the accuracy, point.
Daryl

 

Steven Long....unless I'm mistaken isn't he the person Long Peak in Colorado was named after?

Vic

 

[musketman]

Steven Long....unless I'm mistaken isn't he the person Long Peak in Colorado was named after?

Longs Peak (or "Long's Peak") is one of the 54 "fourteeners" in the Rocky Mountains of Colorado. It can be prominently seen from Longmont, Colorado. It is named after Major Stephen Long, who explored the area in the 1820s. It is very popular to climb.