Rifle Dilemma

[Jason762]

Hello!

I’m interested in getting my OWN black powder rifle, but am having decision problems. Several of them, in fact.

At least I know what type and what (two) calibers I am looking at, as well as the style/era

I’m looking at a Revolutionary-era Kentucky rifle. Apparently they’re also considered “Tennessee” and “Pennsylvania” rifles. I honestly don’t know the difference. Perhaps one of you folks can educate me.

My grandfather owns a left-handed percussion Hawken rifle that is at our house. I’ve shot it several times, and have found I’m a very good shot with it (even better than my Anschutz target rifle), hitting a penny (and blowing through the target) at 25 yards. :thumbsup: (must be the longer sight radius).

So what I mean to say is that I do have black powder experience.

Anyway, my questions.

I. I have no experience in building rifles, but am considering between a rifle built by myself, or a rifle from[url] http://www.avsia.com/tvm/[/url] What do you recommend, do I build or have built?
II. Percussion or flintlock? I did a search and it almost seems to boil down to personal preference (in my scenario, since I have experience). I don’t have a “preference” thus far because I’ve never shot a flintlock.
III. .32 or .45? The rifle would mainly be for target practice, but would like to hunt (squirrels and larger game) on the side. I realize .32 is too small for deer and .45 is too large for squirrels (see my dilemma?! :cursing
IV. What is a Nosecap, Sideplate, Entry Thimble, and Toeplate? And what are they used for?

By the way, I am looking for a workhorse (a "poor boy" I suppose). Nothing fancy, no brass or elegant engraving.

Thanks for your time!

Jason

 

[robinghewitt]

Hi Jason

Welcome to the forum :grin:

I'm not the one to answer your questions but I'm sure someone will. Didn't want you to get worried about getting lots of views and no replies.

Nosecap, Sideplate, Entry Thimble, and Toeplate are just metal fittings that stop your woodwork fraying at the corners.

best regards

Squire Robin

 

[Bob J]

A .45 or even a .50 would allow you to hunt squirrels with reduced loads and head shots. Deer hunting would be fine with stouter loads. Have no idea what you're gun-building capabilities are, but Tennessee Valley Muzzleloading has a very good reputation from everything I've read,including a review of their "Early Virginia Rifle"by Mike Nesbitt. Others here have rifles built by them.

 

Well, first off welcome to the Forum. You do know already that muzzleloading is an afliction, with no known cure. That being said, you mentioned that the M/L that you tried was left handed, so are you one of those people that are in their right mind. You may want to start out with a finished, or in the white gun (that's one that has been assembled, and only needs light sanding and finishing) as your first one, then consider building your next one. I have no doubt there will be a second one, as you appear hooked.
Matt builds fine guns, and would be a fine first choice. I would start out with a .36, or .40 cal. flint as my first gun. They're great for target and small game hunting. Besides percussin guns is a passing folly, they're never gonna catch on, and you can find rocks fer ignition in a creek bed. :rotf: A Lyman GPR can be had in flint or percussion, kit, or finished, right or left for a reasonable price as well, leaving you more funds for all the accessories you'll need, or want. Well those are my thoughts, for what they're worth. Again welcome, browse around newbie, and the answers will come. Bill

 

[Eric/WV]

Picture #1 shows a toeplate. This is a piece of metal that protects the "toe" of the buttstock when setting the butt of the gun on the ground.

Picture #2 shows a sideplate. A sideplate is located on the opposite side of your lock. The lock screws pass through the sideplate to secure the lock to the stock.

Picture #3 shows an entry thimble. Thimbles are the metal tubing that holds the ramrod to the underside of the gun. An entry thimble is the thimble closest to the rear of the gun.

Picture #4 shows a nosecap. This is located under the end of the barrel.


All of these items are "extras" that help protect the wood on your gun, and they can enhance the appearance. Most "poor boy" guns don't have any of these "extras". If you are wanting a revolutionary war period gun, then you will need a flintlock. I personally like TVM's Early Virginia rifle. Good luck.

 

[Zonie]

The "Kentucky" rifles were actually made in Pennsylvania. They got their name mainly from a song that was very popular following the War of 1812 which refered to the Battle of New Orleans and the "...boys with their Kentucky Rifles..."
These are usually decorated with a patch box and quite a lot of brass trim.
Many of the older rifles used swamped barrels. These tapered barrels start out large at the breech, decrease in size towards the middle and get larger again at the muzzle. This gets a lot of weight out of them making them excellent for off hand shooting. It also raises the price of the barrel by about $100.
The Kentucky rifles date to before the Revolutionary War and most of them were Flintlocks.
There are many shapes of the stocks depending on the area in Pennsylvania where they were made and the wood of choice appears to have been Curly Maple with some Cherry and Walnut.

Tennessee rifles were usually from a post Revolutionary War era and were often very plain, sometimes found without even a metal butt plate.
Trigger guards and butt plates (when present) were usually browned iron. The iron patchboxes (when present) were very simple but functional affairs.
These guns were sometimes flintlocks but more often than not, (IMO) were Caplock guns. The barrels were often straight octagons rather than the swamped shape.
The stocks were often Walnut with some Maple.

About your questions:


I. I have no experience in building rifles, but am considering between a rifle built by myself, or a rifle from[url] http://www.avsia.com/tvm/[/url] What do you recommend, do I build or have built?
[color= green] If you can afford it, the rifles built at TVM are nice quality guns using fine American parts. They usually do have a bit of a backlog so getting the gun may take some time.
Because you want a full stocked gun, there are not very many kits out there which are easy to build for a first time builder.
The "kits" sold by Track of the Wolf, Chambers, Pecatonica River are far from drop together guns and take a great deal of time to build, even if you have prior experiance.
Several companys offer "in the white" guns which means they are assembled but will require finishing of the wood (and metal if you choose to blue or brown it). [/color]

II. Percussion or flintlock? I did a search and it almost seems to boil down to personal preference (in my scenario, since I have experience). I don’t have a “preference” thus far because I’ve never shot a flintlock.
[color= green] IMO)Flintlocks are indeed very fun to shoot. They are also one of shootings greatest challenges. They are not as reliable as Caplock guns and sometimes fire a little slower.
Because everything has to be "just right" to shoot a good group, when you do, you will be so happy you will forget all of the quirks of the gun. [/color]

III. .32 or .45? The rifle would mainly be for target practice, but would like to hunt (squirrels and larger game) on the side. I realize .32 is too small for deer and .45 is too large for squirrels (see my dilemma?! )
[color= green] IMO The .32 is only good for squirrels and rabbits. The .45 on the other hand can be used on those animals if you use a light charge and go for head shots. It is about the smallest caliber I would recommend for deer and if used for them, I think the range should be kept to 60 yards max. [/color]
IV. What is a Nosecap, Sideplate, Entry Thimble, and Toeplate? And what are they used for?

[color= green] As Robin said, they are metal parts to provide protection for the wood.
The Nosecap is at the forward end of the stock
The Entry Thimble is located where the ramrod enters the forestock.
The Toeplate is a plate on the underside of the stock right in front of the butt plate. It's job is to keep the rocks etc from splitting the butt of the stock when the buttplate is placed against the ground during loading.
The sideplate provides extra strength to the area between the forestock and the wrist of the gun.
This area has very little wood present because the lock takes up a lot of room. By placing the sideplate on the opposite side from the lock it also serves as a very large and fancy "washer" for the lock screws to tighten up against. [/color]

By the way, I am looking for a workhorse (a "poor boy" I suppose). Nothing fancy, no brass or elegant engraving.

[color= green] In that case, the Tennessee or Southern style rifles should be exactly what your after. [/color]

My opinion about your other questions:

 

[AZ-Robert]

I’m looking at a Revolutionary-era Kentucky rifle...... I don’t have a “preference” thus far because I’ve never shot a flintlock.

If you are after a gun that is historically accurate for the time frame you've picked, you want to go with the flint lock. The percusssion cap really didn't come around til about 1820. That said, there are a lot of folks who use rifles designed to the Rev-War style but with a percussion lock on them.

As for hunting deer with a .45 -- check your local hunting regs. Some states specify the minimum legal caliber.

 

[Jason762]

Well, I was looking at Southern Mountain Rifle Kit.

If I paid for their 'smithing services, how tough would it be to assemble? I've taken woodshop and machine shop (though I did poorly in that class. Guess I'm a wood guy).

Also, can anyone reccomend any good books? I'll buy them through the link on this site.

Thanks!

Jason

 

[Zonie]

Books?
The Art of Building the Pennsylvania Longrifle by Dave Ehrig, Dave Miller & Chuck Dixon is a good choice.

How much work is envolved? If you have them install the breech plug, mill the sight dovetails, and install the barrel underlugs (to pin the stock to the barrel) there is still much work to be done.
The lock inletting will have to be finished, the barrel will have to be fit in the stocks barrel channel, the tang will have to be inletted, the screw that holds the barrel the breech of the barrel in the stock will not be drilled. The holes for the lock bolts will need to be located, drilled in the wood and lock, the locks holes will have to be threaded, the trigger guard and buttplate will have to be polished and inletted, the barrel underlug pins will have to be located and installed, the ramrod thimbles will have to be installed, the trigger will have to be installed and tuned to match the lock...

All in all, you should plan on spending at least 150-200 hours to get a finished gun.
There are people who can do it faster, but they have done it many times before. There are also other people who can do it faster but their gun will look poorly assembled and poorly finished.
I don't know about you, but after I've paid $400 for parts, I want mine to look like the builder knew what he was doing.

 

[Protrucker]

Hello!

III. .32 or .45? The rifle would mainly be for target practice, but would like to hunt (squirrels and larger game) on the side. I realize .32 is too small for deer and .45 is too large for squirrels (see my dilemma?! :cursing

Jason

Where's the delema? Now you have a good excuse to buy two new guns! :grin:

 

[Jason762]

Bald Mtn Man, I was thinking about doing something along the lines of that...

I very recently noticed the "ranking" system around here... So I jokingly thought I would get a rifle in the caliber I went up in.

Currently I'm a .32, so I buy a .32, then when I get a rank of .36, I'll buy a .36 and so on and so forth.

I like that idea! :-D

But seriously though...

Are there any blackpowder rifle men that live in the Bay Area that might be willing to teach a youngster how to do it right? I go to the RR&GC (those who go to this range will know it), so I can meet up with you there. In fact... I'm planning on going to shoot my Grandpa's left handed Hawken rifle.

Hope all is well! Thanks for the help, it's been very... Well, helpful!

Jason

 

Well then, just buy a Bess in .75 Cal. or a 4 Bore in 100 cal. By the way instead of typing a smiley face you can just click on the ones to the left of the message box, and put them into yer message. I got a feeling that it won't be long till yer a .40 cal though. Have fun, ask questions. :thumbsup: Bill

 

[CrackStock]

Jason,

It is great to have you join us in the realm of MLing and here in the ML Forums.

You started out wanting "a Revolutionary-era Kentucky rifle." This sets a time which fixes us on a flintlock. From there we look at location and/or gun type. (I would have discussed muskets and smoothbores along with rifles, but you have stated a rifle, so we are now at a rifle.)

You mentioned Tennessee which is a particular favorite of mine, but is generally considered to be a gun that was developed several decades after the American Revolution.

So if we stay with that time period requirement, we can either look to a particular location or particular style to pick a gun. Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in its Golden Age by Kindig and published by Shumway is a great place to start as is Dillin's The Kentucky Rifle. These are available at many libraries. Browse these at your peril as you will be hooked in short order.

Caliber is a touchy subject. If you are purely a paper shooter or a cross over hunter and want to cast your own rounds early in the game, I suggest the .40 as the most commonly used of the target guns. The .50 is the most readily available and is far better for deer hunting. A .36 will permit you to use Hornady 000 shot which is cheap and often available. This is a good gun for rabbit and squirrel, but not very useful for larger game. (Check your state hunting regs for caliber requirements on various game.)

You mentioned: [url] http://www.avsia.com/tvm/[/url]

This would be Matt Avance and his wife Toni. Good people. I have a gun from one of their kits. (Early Lancaster) These are available built, as a kit or In-The-White which is fully functional, but in need of final finishing. You sand, stain, oil and wax the stock and you do the final filing sanding and coloring of the metal parts.

You are wanting an early gun for Rev War reasons and also to be consistant with a plainer look, so
you might take a peek at the Early Lancaster or Early Virginia rifles in .50 cal.

You might contact a few builders such as Tip Curtis, Jack Garner or Matt Avance. Discuss your skills, available tools and what they can do for you.

You mention Track. Their kits are basically a collection of parts which can be used to make a good gun, but require a great deal of work that might overwhelm a first timer. Dave is good to deal with, but be careful not to bite off more than you can chew. Shipping a gun back to get some work done later is possible, but it is an expensive pain. Best to have it done up front if in doubt. I built a Track North Carolina to Tennessee (Tennessee Classic) kit, but I had a mentor.

Good luck,
CS