Rococo Engraving styles

[Gustavo Hoefs]

I searched the forum prior but found nothing to answer my questions on this. The rococo carving and engraving styles on American longrifles, how does it compare to rococo from France? Plus what is the standard if any for this style, I mean are there rules to define it, design it and produce the layouts or are we making copies of the surviving layouts with slight additions an deletions to those designs?

 

[Pete G]

The classic Rococo carving lies above the surface, whereas the American Rococo often utilizes features both raised above and cut below the base surface in the same pattern. Additionally the American Rococo often used a volute, which is a holdover from the Baroque period incorporated into the design. Since the Rococo went out of style in Europe much earlier than it did in America the American style had more time for development and seems to have evolved into designs that utilized elements from a longer time period.

The European method of gun building used the guild system to perform various operations so that the carving and engraving were performed by specialists in their fields. The American gunsmith pretty much had to do it all himself, which is why, with very few exceptions, the American Longrifle carried more of a folk art look as opposed to the more finished look of European guns.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
You ask very good questions. The term “rococo” is derived from “rocaille”, which means rock or stone work. Rococo specifically refers to a type of shell, a feature often incorporated in rococo carvings. French rococo designs held sway in France during the first half of the 18th century after Louis XIV died (1718). The German version of rococo lasted much longer and is the origin of much of the art on long rifles. To understand “rococo” it helps if you think a little about music. Preceding it was the “baroque” period, which was characterized by symmetry, naturalistic shapes, dramatic shading, bold massive shapes, and precision. Think of the majesty and pompousness of Handel’s music or the mathematical precision of Bach’s. Rococo defied the formality and symmetry of baroque and introduced sweeping asymmetric designs that were light, flowing, indicating movement. Think of Mozart’s music. Shapes were fanciful, C and S-scrolls and foliage were asymmetric, tapered, flared, stretched, and folded. The feeling was exuberant, not heavy or pondering. American “rococo” was just a provincial variant of German rococo and incorporated the same asymmetry and movement. It was less ornate and busy, simpler and often more open. In addition, American makers often incorporated local folk art among the foliage, shells, and scrolls. The rules or guides you seek are simply:
1. asymmetry
2. movement
3. scrolls, foliage, and shapes like shells that are folded, flexible, extended, vary in thickness etc.
4. incised carving that highlights shapes and suggests movement
Rococo is well suited to carved and engraved firearms because so many of the spaces on guns are asymmetric, tapered, and curved.
Below are some photos of my work. The first group show the symmetry and drama of baroque.

The next group show the lightness, movement, asymmetry, and whimsy of rococo:

dave

 

[Grumpa]

Dave, what a great explanation, with beautifully illustrative examples pictured. :hatsoff:

When I was learning to play traditional Irish music on the wood flute, I often thought of the ornamentation and flow of the tunes in terms of Rococo and Baroque carvings in wood. The more I learn about Classical music, I can see the music and art of the times all coming together; the 18th century Irish tune I play, a classical concerto from the same period, and a Pennsylvania longrifle all sharing the same aesthetic.

Thanks to Pete G for another informative answer, and to Goo for the original question.

Richard/Grumpa

 

[rich pierce]

American work was normally unsophisticated compared to Euro work of the period. Dave's work is more sophisticated and/or better executed than 99% of original American work.

 

[Stophel]

Dave's work is finer than found on many European guns as well...

With most European guns you also had more of a factory, assembly-line sort of arrangement. There would be people who just engraved hardware. That's all they did, all day, every day, and their work can be flawless, even on "average grade" guns. American guns... eh, not so much... :haha: (with exceptions!)

As for the differences between American and French or other Rococo or Baroque carving and engraving... to be blunt, study it for yourself. You can't be given a checklist of distinct elements, 1,2,3, and say "ah, this is French because of this feature, and that is American because of that feature". It is art. You study it, you sense it, you feel it. Most people, I'm afraid, are totally oblivious to it and will NEVER "get it", no matter what, but some few can, and through study they can often identify the artwork of a particular region, "school", or even individual from the feel of the artwork. :wink:

 

[Cowboy]

Dave, That is absolutely beautiful! It amazes me to see the skill set of some of our members!

You are truly a master! Highly skilled.

Thankyou for showing us your excellent work!

We always love to see pics!

Also, thanks for creating this topic Goo! Was very informative and a pleasure to read.

Respectfully, Cowboy :hatsoff:

 

[Captjoel]

Great topic and just wow with all of the reply's so far!! I find that trying to understand art is like trying to "see" wind. You can feel it and you know it is there, but is allusive to our sense of vision. Art is all around us in just about every place we may wonder. It is the ability to perceive it and enjoy it that comes to many as a gift. These lucky few have a natural "ear" for it and to other's who may concentrate on it through study. Those who have to work for it. Of coarse, the majority of the masses do not see it at all. To put music as a contrast to the finely designed carvings and metal work makes for a very wonderful symphony in deed! As the wind blows and the air flows, your eye and your ear picks up the flow of rhythm in note's and in the lines and architecture that lies before you. This all to me stimulates a natural high! The coolest part of all this is that like the individual flakes of snow, no two individuals perceive this stimulus in the exact same way! ART....what a small word for such an amazing gift!

 

[Gustavo Hoefs]

In my best attempt at gentlemanly respect and politeness of making a point I can't leave this one alone for a couple of reasons the first being many of my fellow humans exist in in darkness about Art having rules of execution and #2 Dave is correct about 1,2,3. A supporting example would be classical music, music theory, the circle of 5ths etc. and Bach who having written the rules of harmony and chord progression did it so well it has become almost ingrained into our DNA. It even works in popular music. Every popular song out there from st louis blues to white rabbit and alice in chains is written on the formula of chord progressions built on the 1st, 4th & 5th chord of the major and minor scale. The same is true for classical art the problem for me is I don't know the rules or where to find them which is why I asked the question. If this wasn't true it would be impossible to classify Rococo, art deco, art nouveau, roman, egyptian or anything else according to style.

 

[Gustavo Hoefs]

What you are saying makes sense to me when taking into consideration of the gunstocks as a canvas. One would be forced to utilize as much of the surface area and 3 dimensional aspects of the venue , the stock, barrel , locks etc.

 

[Gustavo Hoefs]

Thank you Dave this was extremely informative and I can see much more investigation is needed on my part.
My next question is one that begins with a compliment. Your work clearly sets you apart and gives you authority to set standards. Where do the designs/examples you show come from are they new are some reproductions? I would like to see more of that miquelet lock too :bow:

 

[Stophel]

How do you tell the difference between Telemann and Albinoni? Vivaldi and Purcell? Bach and Charpentier?

 

[Rifleman1776]

With most European guns you also had more of a factory, assembly-line sort of arrangement. There would be people who just engraved hardware. That's all they did, all day, every day, and their work can be flawless, even on "average grade" guns. American guns... eh, not so much

Could that alse be because in Europe guns were built for the aristocracy as luxury items while in America the rifle was an instrument for hunting and defense? :hmm:

 

[Grumpa]

Right on.

 

[Stophel]

Depends upon where you were. In despotic France, and to a lesser extent, England, yes. In the German states, however (and in Holland and Sweden and some other places), every little hamlet seems to have had a gunsmith. And while hunting different types of big game may have been restricted in various places (I'm still having a hard time finding out just to what extent), target shooting was THE spectator sport of the time and civilian gun ownership seems common (born out by the huge numbers of German rifles and smoothbore guns that still exist. And they're definitely not all "nobility grade"). I've even read period comments obliquely referencing local civilian militias. The Germans seem to have been a relatively well-armed people up until the red conquest. I have a German (?.. I'm beginning to believe Flemish, actually) bird gun from about 1760 that is a "nice" gun, but not "royal grade" and the engraving on the hardware is FLAWLESS. Not one single chisel slip, not one single crossed line, perfect. I believe the hardware was purchased by the gunsmith, or he had a dedicated engraving shop. I have photos of a rifle that is obviously from the same shop but with completely different hardware. In the 1770s-80s-90s you begin to see very distinctive hardware sets on German guns and even American ones! This hardware began to be seriously mass produced and even exported to the US.

 

[matt denison]

Dave, just want to comment what a great reply. It really got me thinking in a different direction. Great pictures too. My hat is off to you.

L'dog

 

[Vaino]

Dave...thanks for your contributions to this topic...both for your astute comments and also for the pics of your outstanding work. Truly you are an artist.

Also my compliments to Rich Pierce and Chris Immel {Stophel}....very enlightening info on a subject which I know nothing about but which I should study.

I normally don't contribute to topics such as this for obvious reasons, but surely do enjoy and appreciate the info...never too old to... Thanks to all....Fred

 

[dave_person]

Hi Goo,
The link below is to my post about the 17th century gun you asked about. It is not a miquelet, rather a snaphaunce converted to a type 1 English lock. It represents a gun from NW France made during the early 1600s. The art style is late mannerism and early French baroque.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showpost.php?post/981368/

I generally do not copy the work of others or original makers. I am inspired by their works but my designs are my own. I have a large library of books and photos of original and contemporary guns and I visit museums and collections to maintain a wide scope of information on styles and designs. I also have a very good memory for details and have an extensive library of designs and styles in my head. With respect to american longrifles, books such as Kindig's and Hansen's help inspire me.

dave

 

[dave_person]

Hi Folks,
Thank you and I really appreciate the kind comments. I did not intend to fish for compliments by posting the photos. I hoped they provided some illustration of my understanding of the art forms. I mainly build muzzleloading guns because I love the decorative arts and some of the very best work was lavished on firearms because they were important gifts and heirlooms. Prior to firearms, swords and armor had that distinction. The decorative arts were always the handmaiden or poor cousin to the fine arts of painting, sculpture, and later, music. They were the product of common tradesmen and craftsmen who learned their skills, methods, and styles within guilds and from apprenticeships. They were the working class and not exalted like the great painters and sculptors. Decorative styles changed much more slowly among those craftsmen than they did among fine artists because the styles were learned from masters during apprenticeships and perpetuated. Moreover, decorative artists were constrained by the objects to be decorated. They did not work with blank canvasses. Their canvasses actually had to do something useful. Keep in mind that categories like “rococo” and “baroque” are retrospective labels. Bach did not sit down and think, “I am going to compose some baroque music”. Changes in styles and motifs of art generally happened among the fine artists and their influence slowly trickled down to the decorative craftsmen, who generally held on to those styles long after the fine arts had morphed again. American gunsmiths had to make a living without the inspiration and patronage of a wealthy clientele. I believe many were part time gunsmiths who tried to amass enough resources to quit the trade and become land owning farmers. I believe as a whole their creativity was high but their skill level was very modest compared with their European counterparts. They also clung to their decorative traditions of a rustic rococo style long after it was abandoned by Europeans. They seem to have completely missed the Regency and Classical Revival styles popular in England and Europe during the early 19th century and transitioned into a gaudy confused, “pimped out”, nouveau riche style that lacked much artistic value. By then the European traditions of design and skill brought over by the German immigrants during the mid 18th century had long faded away. Some like John Fleeger maintained a high standard of artistry and craftsmanship well into the percussion era, but he was an exception in my opinion.

dave

 

[Gustavo Hoefs]

Their name is on the program? No seriously though, that which is not understood is magic that which is, is science. There is formula in art, Fibonacci mathematical equations give us the perfect spiral a formula used in rococo spirals. There is the golden rectangle, and abstraction in Greek architecture designed to draw the eye into cadence and the emotion into a sense of acceptance. Fractals give us repeating patterns all math all formulas all art. If the music of one composer within a particular time period has a different sound it is not magic it is his Math was a following a different melodic lead slower faster more trills less trills more strings less wind orchestra, chamber ,concerto , symphony etc. Http://spider.georgetowncollege.edu/music/burnette/partwriting.htm