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Roger's Rangers-musket accuracy

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BSchroe

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Apparently musket barrels were cut off . Understand necessity of shorter weapon in thick woods , wonder what effective range was ?

Read somewhere about Rangers moving some place, stopped for a time . Amused themselves by shooting pine cones from trees around them .Had they found a way to get fairly accurate shooting out of those smooth bore muskets ?
 
Check out Ranger Muskets in Historically Accurate Equipment
Allthe Musket range reports in the Smooth Bore Forum.
 
"rangers" used a wide variation of guns - not only smoothbores. how said that a shooting at whatever target was with smoothies?

i red the story about the cut-back bess muskets that is said the rangers used them - cannot believe this story.

rangers and their tactis of fighting asked for individuals, not for a company of musket shooters, standing shoulder to shoulder. rangers have been "single shooters" so to speak. why should they cut back their accuracy?

who said the cut back muzzles, found on roger island, are from that timeperiod?

ike
 
"Read somewhere about Rangers moving some place, stopped for a time. Amused themselves by shooting pine cones from trees around them."

That was from Kenneth Roberts' book, "Northwest Passage." It was at Crown Point prior to setting out on the St. Francis (Odanak today) expedition.
 
There were a bunch of 7" barrel cutoffs found on the island where Rogers Rangers camped near Fort Edward. They also found about 250 graves on that island so there was a lot of activity on it.

The Rangers were known to shorten their Brown Bess, they were also known to carry several different kind of loads for their weapon. Standard issue cartridges, powder horn, "pea sized" shot, loose ball.

My semi-educated guess is that their loads could change as tactics dictated. If they needed accuracy they could load a ball with a patch. If they wanted to add shot for buck and ball they could do that. If they were in a firefight they could use the cartridges so they could load faster.

As to accuracy. I shoot a Pedersoli Bess Carbine. With a .715 ball, .010 spit patch and 90 to 120 grains of 2F I can generally hit what I am aiming at. I have a couple of cloverleaf targets from 25 yards and I have hit and knocked down bear silhouette targets at 120 yards.

The Bess is a reasonably accurate weapon in the hands of an experienced shooter with the correct loads.

BTW, the earlier versions of Roger's Rangers furnished their own weapons and gear. It wasn't until the British Army realized that they needed a force to counter the Indians and French that Roger's Rangers got regular Army supplies.

Many Klatch
 
I can't recall the name of the book off the top of my head(it may have been authored by Eckhert; but it spoke of Rogers receiving constant complaints from some of the British brass for contantly shooting on the island to keep up their shooting skills and loads due to the waste of powder and ball.

TinStar
Soli Deo Gloria!
 
There is no doubt that gun barrels were shortened; whether it was the “official” thing to do, a repair for a burst barrel or the whim of a group of men, I will leave for the historians to debate.

What we do know is that guns were built to a certain pattern. A cut down musket is a cut down musket, which is to say they should look that way. The forearm length, and the unaffected ram rod guides, barrel bands etc. should be in the original location, while those in the cut off section should be stuck on the end of the shortened stock or if shortened enough left off.

If you see a well-proportioned shortened Brown Bess; then or now, it was a custom job and probably not carried by the average yeoman.

As far as effective musket volley range is concerned, a 4 or 6 inch shorter barrel would make little difference. However in a bayonet charge it is another matter. :shocked2:
 
The British Army actually had to shorten some barrels. It seems that the constant drill and practice with the ramrod going down the barrel actually thinned the end of the muzzle to the point where the muzzle had to be bobbed. Probably not 7 inches though.

Many Klatch
 
:shake: Muskets returned to the BOO may have been turned into something else if the musket was deemed still serviceable , but then it would have been a second line issue weapon .What you mention may have occured as a campain repair in a remote area .
 
I'm 5'6", close to average height at that time.

I don't think that when they were cut down it was for easier handling in the woods. Just ain't been a problem fer me and I have 42" fowler.

I think they were cuut down because of this (this pic of someone taken at Ti on the 250th)....

ticrangerbalance.jpg


If I'm gonna have to go on a death march to St Francis or whatnot carrying a slung musket, the regulation length barrel is just too darn long, I'd be tripping over it constantly, and thats on foot never mind on snowshoes.

And dont tell me I can carry just carry it in my hand in February.

I'd be needing a new front sight, but a bayonet??

When did the Rangers ever employ a bayonet charge? And if bayonets were all that for woods combat, how come the Indians, who man for man prob'ly practiced more woods combat than anyone, never wanted 'em?

Birdwatcher
 
Good comments Grandpa Ron. That the shortening of the barrel wouldn't have much effect on accuracy , I can see that . We cannot really know for sure but some of those firefights must have been really close .
 
You guys need to read the topic on actual muskets issued to the ranger coys. in historical equipment topics before jumping to thoughts :)
 
Same year (I think) u were walking out of the bookshop at Ti in the picture I went through "Woods Fighting" at BAR School... I couldn't wait to have a shortened Bess with buck-n-ball -- they'd be SO obviously an improvement. Besides, the Rangers didn't cut down their barrels, they were ubiquitous Elliot Carbines the gent(s) said in another thread...
 
NO I said the Pedersoli Carbine was a n Elliot, research has not shown that the rangers were armed with besses but that the first units supplied their own guns and some were issued captured French muskets , Gage's Lights were supplied with Dragoon carbines( not in the sense they had short barrels but rather smaller cal.) read the research there is quite a lot there if you can find the time. Most portraying rangers use besses because they are the British musket and readily available to them and there is not a thing wrong with that but don't dish on others who want to do factual research on these units .
 
Birdwatcher said:
I don't think that when they were cut down it was for easier handling in the woods. Just ain't been a problem fer me and I have 42" fowler.


I haven't seen anyone mention that shorter guns would be easier to use and reload from a crouching, kneeling or prone position. I believe that a WHOLE lot of warfare in that theater was ambush and counter ambush was it not?

Just because the first growth woods wouldn't be thick and brushy enough to warrant a specialized weapon doesn't mean you won't be doing a significant portion of your fighting from, behind and in brush and cover that you've sought out for an ambush position.


(I'm not very well studied on this time period or the Rangers. Just trying to think of what makes sense.)

EDIT: now that I think about it, you guys are talking about taking 6-8" off of a 40"+ barrel. That wouldn't make much of a difference in that situation I think.
 
When it comes to military, there is so much documentation about so many variables such regulars, militias and other ill-assorted groups; I find it best to leave it to those interested to hammer out the details.

I was trying to point out that, if you are supposed have a cut down, refurbished or re-issued etc. gun; it should look that way.

There is many a fine looking fowling piece that was made from assorted parts but they were purpose built to someone specifications.
 
BSchroe said:
Apparently musket barrels were cut off . Understand necessity of shorter weapon in thick woods , wonder what effective range was ?

Read somewhere about Rangers moving some place, stopped for a time . Amused themselves by shooting pine cones from trees around them .Had they found a way to get fairly accurate shooting out of those smooth bore muskets ?

as to accuracy I doubt they were any less accurate than the longer musket and if practiced with a shooter should be able to hit their mark...

about 30 years ago a friend had a 69 calber smoothbore carbine it was patterened after the 1858 enfield carbine in percussion... this came out of India in the 50's or 60's.... the rear sight was basicly a "U" we did not have a bullet mold so I made one out of some soapstone with a dremmel the two mold halfs did not meet accuratly and the ball was not perfict because of it...
with these rounds and a 50 grain FFg load I could keep all 5 shots inside a dinner plate at 100 yards.... if I increased the load to 70 grains the shots were all over the place... My friend put a 1x2 out at about 20 to 25 yards and was trying to hit is with a cheap spanish made penn. rifle in 45 cal.... he had fired at it 3 or 4 times... I had the carbine loaded and asked him if I could take a shot? Well my first shot cut the stake in two.... so I would say if a man knows his smoothbore he should be able to his what he aims at....
 
There seems to be some confusion over what was done back in the heydey of Rogers' Rangers and the shortening of the muskets and darkening of barrels...,

"Lord Howe . . . ordered the muskets to be shortened . . . the barrels of their guns were all blackened." MacVickers 1758

The queston then is how short were the muskets, and who carried them? This was the period when the Long Land Pattern musket was undergoing field modifications that led to the Short Land Pattern becoming the official "pattern".

"The barrells of the Firelocks of the Light Infantry must all be made blue or brown, to take off the glittering." Moneypenny's Orderly Book, February 26, 1759.

So the light infantry, were modifying their muskets in the orderly's records. Did they cut them too? In the orderly's book does the term "light infantry" also mean rangers? :confused:

"The companys to give in separate returns this evening, of the firelocks only, distinguishing between the sufficient and unsufficient, those cut or not cut". Orders to the 42nd Regiment of Highland Foote, 28 July 1761.

So here we see that the Black Watch may have had some "cut" firelocks, but how short?

Archaeological digs on Rogers' Island, Fort Edward, NY, did unearth what are believed to be cut off portions of musket barrles. However, the pieces found varied in length, from 4" to 8". Cutting off 4" of a 46" Long Land Pattern musket gives one a 42" barrel..., the length later settled on for the Short Land Pattern. AND..., there is no evidence that says the unearthed tubes were cut from the barrels of King's Muskets. They may be pieces from privately owned arms, or contract arms. Granted, those shortened by 8", IF they were Long Land Pattern muskets, would be considered very short at 38" barrels. However, we don't know that they weren't from 50" barreled fowlers, pirvately owned, and cut down to 42". The fact that the calibers when checked are not outside of those for a Long Lang Pattern musket is not proof the barrel pieces came from that sort of musket. :shocked2:

Some folks point to an order from Major Jeffery Amherst to Major Robert Rogers dated 25th May, 1760 "You will take your men as light with you as possible, . . . let every man whose firelock will carry it have a bayonet." The implication is that some of the firelocks seem not to "carry" a bayonet, but that doesn't mean that those "firelocks" were cut down from British muskets, nor does the term "firelock" exclude rifles.

In support of the idea of private or contract guns, note that Lord Loudoun during the war authorized Rogers to form 5 new ranger companies, and and when doing so wrote"to find their own arms, which must be fit, and be upon examination, shall be found fit, and be approved of." Which shows that the rangers did have contract muskets. So these may have had shortened barrels from day one, or the rangers shortened them while on Rogers' Island. Arms supplied from other sources other than The Crown were used by units other than the rangers..., Abercromby on March 15, 1758, wrote to several governors in colonies raising troops, and told them the troops needed to bring their own muskets.

In 1759, Rogers contracted with Greg & Cunningham to provide muskets (at least I think they were muskets) for his rangers. Rogers was informed on February 26th 1759, "..., arms have been tried and proved by the artillery; they answer very well, and are ordered to be sent to you as fast as possible."

"Proved" by the artillery indicates the arms are new, the barrels not from England (for they would've been proofed prior to leaving the island), so had to be proofed in the colonies prior to acceptance.

So Rangers, some at least, probably had arms shorter than the standard Long Land Pattern bess..., but the evidence for the source of the shorter muskets is inconclusive (imho).

Conjecture:
I would think that without other evidence, shortening a King's Musket, AKA a Long Land Pattern musket to less than 42" highly unlikely a thing to be done in the 18th century, unless there was an actual order allowing it. True, their were Artillery Carbines in the same time period, and dragoon carbines, and NCO fusils, but from what I have seen these were made that way at the armory, not fashioned in provincial locations.

I think that Rogers could do whatever he wanted with contract arms of similar caliber to British muskets, but which were not made to the Board of Ordinance regulations, so he was not breaking regulations if they were made short or shortened after arrival.

As for accuracy, it is well known that when properly loaded, and used by a person who has practised often with a specific musket, that they are indeed quite accurate out to nearly 100 yards. (The 3rd model/East India Company Pattern Bess with barrels of about 38" did quite well.) Plus, annecdotal accounts of shooting pine cones does not include an account limiting the rangers to using a single ball does it? We know from Knox' Journal (iirc) the Rangers carried "pea sized" shot as well, and they could've been using that to shoot the cones. (Shooting cones with shot does give a rather satisfying "explosion" of the cone when the cone is hit.)

LD
 
Right on! (For the benefit of the younger members who don't remember the 60's!)

Actually, Dave is probably close to the truth, we'll never really know. The actual quote about loads from Captain Knox reads, in part, "...; and a leathern or seal's skin bag...which hangs down before, contains bullets, and a smaller shot of the size of green peas; six or seven of which, with a ball, they generally load;....".

This would seem to confirm that the rangers were using a "buck & ball" load designed for shorter woods ranged fighting. Reading accounts of their actual operations would indicate that short range ambushes was the preferred method of fighting. It is also interesting to note that Gary Zaboly uncovered a French source that credits the French and their Indian partisans loading their longarms, "with a ball and six swan shot". Could have been a lot of buckshot flying around them woods!

John Cuneo, who wrote one of the first widely known book on Rogers quoted quite a number of period works in "Robert Rogers of the Rangers". One other interesting comment was that, "Muskets were strictly regulation issue." What that statement was actually based on is unknown, it only makes for more supposition. And if the 8" pieces of barrel were indeed trimmed off King's muskets, that would leave 38 inch barrels as the minimum, as Dave mentioned.
 
It seems to me that RRs may not have been overly concerned about operating strictly by the book. If they felt that shortening their muskets would lead more successful accomplishment of their missions while surviving said missions they would do it. They did travel fast and light, you know. Also, I know from experience (USMC), that even highly trained ,skilled, and motivated troops sometimes exaggerate their skill level. They will sometimes also modify their issue equipment for the same reasons RRs would, without asking the Brass, may I?. The incident referring to RRs amusing themselves by shooting pine cones MAY have been more accurate if it had said, they amused themselves by shooting AT pine cones. Just my 2 cents.
 

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