Rollin' My Own.......

[Eutycus]

I'd be interested to see how that magicians flash paper works out. Seems like it would be fragile.

 

[.44 associate]

I am interested in the results as well! I have a number of concerns and frankly would not try it were it not for the fact that the paper provided by H&C for revolver cartridges appears to be flash paper.

 

[Eutycus]

I realize you guys are getting tired of hearing this but I am "new at this paper cartridge thing". How many times around the dowel is the paper used wrapped? Seems like you'd want to use as little paper as possible. But if more paper makes for a sturdier cartridge I suppose it wouldn't hurt as long as everything burns up.

 

[.44 associate]

I realize you guys are getting tired of hearing this but I am "new at this paper cartridge thing". How many times around the dowel is the paper used wrapped? Seems like you'd want to use as little paper as possible. But if more paper makes for a sturdier cartridge I suppose it wouldn't hurt as long as everything burns up.

I use just a single wrap with a separate circle of paper glued to the base. I store the cartridges in individually drilled wooden holes to protect them.

 

[Eutycus]

Okay got another question. Has anyone noticed a difference in the types of glue? I'm presently using a cheap glue stick made in China. Would quality stuff like Elmers be any better? I am guessing it really wouldn't matter.

 

[Enfieldguy]

I have been playing at this quite a bit over the past weeks. I have tried both end papers and cigarette papers, and I have tried them nitrated and plain. I have found that the end papers work better, but I also (after several phone calls and emails) found that with regard to construction and chemical treatment, cigarette papers are all over the map. All sorts of different fibers are used in construction of the paper, and some are nitrated, some are bleached, some have other additives to speed up or slow down the burn rate, and that's not even touching on the various glues used for rolling/sealing. At this point I would argue that when we say "cigarette paper" none of us really know what we've got. So the end papers worked better than the specific brand and model of cigarette papers I used, which is a nearly meaningless statement.

Beyond that, I saw little difference between nitrated and untreated paper. It all left stuff in the chambers. I haven't quite decided how much that bothers me - but I have ordered some magician's flash paper (and the special glue apparently required to stick it together) and will report back on it.

The correct(and originally used) paper is 100% linen paper. 9 pound to 13 pound weight. Cigarette paper is rice paper and it has been chemically treated with a fire retardant.

 

[Gun Tramp]

Great. Another project. Though I haven't tried making them yet, some time ago I purchased the seven page booklet "Self Consuming Paper Cartridges for the Percussion Revolver" from Dixie. Dimensions for .36 and .44 forming dowels and a pattern for the paper are given, along with assembly instructions. "Brief" would be an understatement but the illustrations of how the paper is formed around the tapered dowel make sense. Most interesting is the author's use of waterglass (sodium silicate) as an adhesive. A point of argument will be the recommendation of 100% cotton 16-pound typing paper for nitrating...

 

[Enfieldguy]

Great. Another project. Though I haven't tried making them yet, some time ago I purchased the seven page booklet "Self Consuming Paper Cartridges for the Percussion Revolver" from Dixie. Dimensions for .36 and .44 forming dowels and a pattern for the paper are given, along with assembly instructions. "Brief" would be an understatement but the illustrations of how the paper is formed around the tapered dowel make sense. Most interesting is the author's use of waterglass (sodium silicate) as an adhesive. A point of argument will be the recommendation of 100% cotton 16-pound typing paper for nitrating...

The sodium silicate is what was originally used for adhesive. I've tried it but to me it's harder to work with and sometimes the seam of the tube and the end cap will be left behind unconsumed. I use plain Elmers stick glue with no issues. On another forum it was suggested making up a simple flour paste but I haven't tried that yet. The 16# paper may be a little heavy. Thinner is better here. I've been using 13# Bienfang 100% linen stock with great results. It mics out to .0025". There is a 9# linen available that measures .0015" but I haven't tried it yet. I'm well stocked up on the 13# for the foreseeable future. I also use it for the outer wrapper on my Pritchett cartridges.

 

[.44 associate]

The correct(and originally used) paper is 100% linen paper. 9 pound to 13 pound weight. Cigarette paper is rice paper and it has been chemically treated with a fire retardant.

I have come across records indicating several different types of paper were used originally. Most of those paper types are still available but I have not been able to find linen of less than 24 pounds. Do you have any sources?

As for cigarette paper, it sometimes is rice but often is not, and all sorts of different chemical treatments are used.

 

[Erwan]

One thing is surprising: cigarette paper would not be (and is not anyway) good for making cartridges because of the action of a retarder (limestone often for old papers), nitration is quite delicate but the glue would be sodium silicate, the problem raised is that sodium silicate is precisely a retarder and is used to fireproof certain materials. So on the one hand we are looking for the most combustible papers but we add sodium silicate for gluing is it the best idea, this is not certain....
Personally I use vegetable sugar cane glue which has no retarding power for my rare revolver cartridges but always to make linen cartridges for my Sharps 59/63 as a replacement for sodium silicate.
This glue is very good and leaves no residue and burns perfectly if you have Huhu glues it is in yellow tube with green writing...
To recognize this glue you can see it here: https://www.uhu.fr/content/dam/bolt...fr/4745/1_transparant.png.thumb.1280.1280.png

 

[Bad Karma]

Another shooter tells me he uses Duco cement, he claims it’s flammable...

 

[.44 associate]

Another shooter tells me he uses Duco cement, he claims it’s flammable...

I use Duco to seal brass shotshells. The manufacturer warns that is "extremely flammable" both wet and dry. I certainly have not seen any evidence of dried Duco left behind in my shotgun.

I also have used it, thinned with acetone, for gluing paper cartridges. I don't believe it is a cause of paper left in the chambers, but have no way to prove it.

 

[Erwan]

Another shooter tells me he uses Duco cement, he claims it’s flammable...

Yep, this one is very flammable and works fine well too, it's perfect :

Spoiler

 

[Eutycus]

A couple of weeks ago I rolled a couple of dozen shells with un-nitered paper (coffee filters). I have since nitered a batch but notice the cheap-made-in-china glue stick doesn't work as well on the nitered stuff. It doesn't stick near as well. Is this normal for all glues? Or should I try another brand of glue?

 

[.44 associate]

A couple of weeks ago I rolled a couple of dozen shells with un-nitered paper (coffee filters). I have since nitered a batch but notice the cheap-made-in-china glue stick doesn't work as well on the nitered stuff. It doesn't stick near as well. Is this normal for all glues? Or should I try another brand of glue?

My experience has been that nitrated paper is harder to glue. That is why I tried Duco. It is a bit messier - I like to thin it with acetone and apply it with a fine brush - but it holds better than the stick glues I have tried.

 

[Erwan]

It doesn't stick near as well. Is this normal for all glues? Or should I try another brand of glue?

I think that it would be better to try another glue.
I make much cartridges for Sharps Sporting 1859/63 Pedersoli, and I don't do this with paper but with treated linen (real flax, corn starch, nitrate (KNO³) and alcohol with shellac), I don't have any problem with gluing with the glue I was talking about before we spoke of Duco Cement
That glue is made with stuff coming from sugarcane and works fine and much better than waterglass (soda silicate), I have no more residue after shooting with linen and paper. But I prefer linen than paper for the solidity during shooting and manipulations and no problems with the knotted yarn or paper residues remaining along the gluing strip....
Maybe Duco cement is better but I've never seen it on sale in France........ I'll look for it on eBay...

So, I really think that the problem is your glue...

 

[Eutycus]

I've noticed that several times when Duco is mentioned the word " cement" follows. Is Duco a cement , paste or glue? Or is there really a differance?

 

[Erwan]

I've noticed that several times when Duco is mentioned the word " cement" follows. Is Duco a cement , paste or glue? Or is there really a differance?

"Cement" is part of the brand, I guess, because this is very flammable glue but it's writed "cement" on the tube.
Look at the spoiler of the fourth post before this one, the picture is big enought to read "Dulco Cement " on but this is a glue...

 

[Grenadier1758]

You are looking for a glue (cement) that is formulated for welding celluloid and wood products. So @Erwan, you could be looking for a similar product such as UHU Hart which is made in Germany.

 

[Erwan]

You are looking for a glue (cement) that is formulated for welding celluloid and wood products. So @Erwan, you could be looking for a similar product such as UHU Hart which is made in Germany.

I did, but we cannot get Uhu Hard anymore so now I'm using this one and tghis is good too:

Spoiler