Round Ball effective range?

[wtilenw]

Information on how far one should shoot at deer size game with a patched round ball seems to be hard to come by. The printed literature I have seen is scarce on the subject and seems to lead me to believe that 50 yards should be a maximum for deer size game. I have not killed too many animals with my guns but had a complete pass through on a mule deer doe at 125 yds. and this years buck was also a pass through at 70 yards ( .54 cal. .530 RB 80 gr. Pyrodex Select. ). Are the centerfire people just trying to knock the performance capabilitys of our patched round ball, which we seem to have very little trouble cleanly harvesting our game with? I have shot with surprising accuracy on targets to 180 yards. Do you think that there is enough retained energy at that range to be effective on a mule deer?
Idaho PRB

 

[SquirrelsaurusR]

I have shot with surprising accuracy on targets to 180 yards.

With your .54? What type of rifle is it, and how long is the barrel? Primitive sights?

 

[wtilenw]

I have a Lyman Great Plains Rifle and a TC Hawken with a Green Mountain barrel. I use Lyman 57 tang sight on both. The GPR has a hooded front sight with interchangable inserts.
Idaho PRB

 

[AgesofDays]

ide have to call you on this one

 

I have shot with surprising accuracy on targets to 180 yards. Do you think that there is enough retained energy at that range to be effective on a mule deer?
Idaho PRB

Having hunted Muleys, I think that about 100 yards is the outside for taking them with black powder. You CAN take them farther I'm sure, but in order to deliver sufficient energy, I would want to be close enough to cause a through and through wound.

Now, this goes against modern hunting ideals, but with a round ball, you don't get bullet expansion, and therefore don't get the same cavitation that you would with a hollow point. A round ball injury is more on the order of an arrow wound, and a through and through shot will cause massive bleeding, which is what you want, in conjuction with a well placed kill-shot.

however, take the stump test if if doubt. if the ball will go through a 4x4 post, it will go through any part of a deer...and if you can hit a 4x4 post at 180 yards, then by all means, go for it.

But, :imo:, keep it under 100 yards. Not easy to do in Idaho, I know, but, :results:

 

[jtmattison]

but with a round ball, you don't get bullet expansion

I have to disagree with this.
A roundball can flatten out to at least double it's diameter upon striking a solid object such as a deer.
I have more confidence in the stopping power of a roundball then I do a hollow point bullet at the right distance.

Huntin

 

[Rat]

Yes, the round ball does expand quite a bit, actually "flattens"....unless velocity is very low.

Indeed the manufacturers of inlines and wonder bullets will make rediculous statements as to the range of roundballs. Wait until Daryl reads that 50 yard statement!

Realistically, I'd say maximum roundball range, ethically speaking is 125 yards if you have the accuracy. And that would be with an appropriate caliber, and powder charge.

100 yards is a pretty far piece, and one should be able to get that close to game. If you can't, then one should consider taking up golf, or going back to modern rifle hunting.

Rat

 

[wtilenw]

Thank you for your input. I don't profess to be very experienced but Im not a liar, however, I'm not thin skinned either and welcome your honest opinion. I am seeking information from those of you that have done this much longer than I have. I have set my maximum range for myself at 125 yards, under ideal conditions. My biggest consideration is to the animal. I owe it a quick, clean death.
Idaho PRB

 

[rrgr40]

I aggree to a quick clean death of the prey. The way I see it, only you can answer this question. Your abilities are unique to you. I think the first consideration for you would be at what distance are you comfortable shooting. Can you hit the kill zone every time at that distance under less than ideal conditions?--PERFORMANCE--Althought he was not a huge muzzleloading man, he was very knowledgeable, Elmer Kieth said that if a bullet would go thru a 2x4 it would kill a deer. As far as the expansion of a roundball is concerned, if it does not strike a bone, expansion will be minimal and a clean pass is likely. I have encountered heart and lung shots with a roundball where the animal did not bleed until it fell. Hope I was of some help. Good Luck :m2c:

 

[Tlukes]

Idaho PRB
At http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/mlexperiments/mlexpts.html there is a A Round Ball Ballistics Calculator that you can Down load and enter the info for your rifle and get FPS, fpe,Drop,Drift,TOF.
Hope this is some help.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Hey! A controversial issue and everyone is behaving like a gentlemen. Time for me to wade in a stir the pot.

180 yards? I believe you. I have a peep sight on my tiny Contender .223 carbine and have popped woodchucks well past 200 yards with that. If you know your trajectory and have a solid rest it is amazing what good iron sights can accomplish. I'm betting a .54 ball is dropping more than three feet at 180 yards with a 75 yard zero depending on how stiff your load is.

I limit myself to just over 100 yards with any round ball. And that's with a rest, motionless & relaxed deer, no intervening brush and a shining golden chalice appearing between the buck's antlers. I suppose if it was late in the season and the clouds parted over a buck at 120 yards I would try my darndest to line up a shot. I shot a bedded buck at about that distance after he walked in and hunkered down as I was sitting in a ground blind. I spent ten minutes getting everything "just so" for that shot; moving like a snail with rheumatism and praying the wind didn't shift.

When a shot "feels right" I will take it. I passed on a deer opening day at 40 yards because it did not feel right - too much undergrowth between us.

I used to do a lot of woodchuck shooting with a .36 Seneca and Maxi-balls. I was hiting maybe 50% at 150 yard shots using cross-sticks. It's good practice for trigger control and range estimation.

I've mentioned this one before. A shooting club I once belonged to placed a 3-D deer target in a field and asked hunters to write down their yardage guess. It was something like 137 yards, and we had guesses from 75 yards to 225 yards.

A first-shot hit at an unknown range is a beautiful thing. Roundballs drop like little rocks after about 80 yards, so it becomes a matter of range estimation as well as target ability. Have someone else put a target out for you without letting you pace it off or watch and see how well you do. It is tough. I have a ravine behind my house and I set up book-sized shale rocks on the far side whenever I walk over there. Days or weeks later, I'll go back and try smashing them from long range.

 

[ryoung14]

Range estimation practice while on the road:

While on one of those boring interstate highway trips through the countryside, note when the tenths digit on the odometer is about to trip and try to pick out a landmark next to the highway that you think is about 180 yards away. When the tenths digit changes again you'll be nearly 180 yards further down the road. A tenth of a mile is 176 yards. See how close you can come to predicting where it'll change.

FWIW
Bob

 

[RussB]

"Hey! A controversial issue and everyone is behaving like a gentlemen".........Very commendable for this subject!

Long range with a PRB is tricky business at best. I certainly don't think that the 50 yard limitation will stand up very well, and 150+ yds would require a bit of assistance from a higher power to be consistant, IMHO.

I have never shot at an animal much over 120yds using a ML, but I have done a lot of shooting on the range. I can "ring" a 30" gonger at 200 yds with fair consistency using a vernier sight on my .50 cal, with 90grs FFFg, and a PRB.(There is not enough adjustment in a regular sight)...but, although I can hear, and sometimes see, the ball hit, I can also "hear" it ain't doing much when it gets there.
(When I ring that same gonger with my 45-70 using BP, you know it's been rung.)

I'm sure we each have our own ideas, and experiences, that tell us how far is too far, and if we should be shooting at all. Let me just say that if the shot looks impossible...it probably is.

Russ

 

I think there may be a confusion between what is the average shot and what is effective range.

If one does his research he will find that the "average" shot at a whitail deer nationwide, is less than 50 yards. That includes BP and modern arms. That may be where the 50 yard number originates. Some technical writer is mistaking average for absolute.

What we see in the posts on this thread is an agreement that we are restricted more by the capabilities of our sights/marksmanship than by limitations placed on us by the balistic performance or our rifles.

Our capabilities varry, as do our choices on what is an effective range in a given situation of tarain, light, caliber choice, powder charge and individual shooting ability.

Good thread!

 

[RussB]

Well said Ghost.

I would not hesitate on taking a 125 yard shot with my .50 cal. But, I don't think I would take that same shot with my .54, albeit more energy, it's that the sights on my .50 are that much better.....for that range!

I hunt with the vernier down, but I can see my regular 60 yard sight just fine with it up. (Ilook under the eye cup)
I think that if I can see the deer at 125yards, and he is not running, I do have time to position my stick and raise my sight...it "clicks" into place.

When the sight is down, it is still short enough (Mid-range sight) that I can get a "pistol like grip" on the stock. (I removed a long range sight for that very reason...it stuck back too far.)

The T/C Hunter Sight does not have this capability, but it is still a great sight when set up at +/- 60 yards.
This is looking at the back of the Vernier sight.

So what is the effective round ball range? IMHO, It is the sights, and remaining energy....these two things along with the hunter's skill will determine the answer....

Russ

 

[epiconyare]

Great subject,
I just returned from our last deer season in Illinois and now have shot 4 deer with 4 shots since I made my Pedersoli Blue Ridge.50 percussion. I can hit everything aimed within 60 yards, not to sound cocky just confident. First day of second season I had the largest buck I've seen in a long time stand broadside at about 120 yards. I had my gun sitting on a branch and aimed for about 10 minutes. I couldn't justify pulling the trigger. Like it was said above -if it don't feel right it ain't right.
Anyway the next night on Friday I shot a nine pointer weighing about 170 - 190 pounds, broadside slightly down hill. Anyway that round ball hit a rib squarely and must have flattened out by 3 times its size because the heart was torn in two - I had to show my Uncle, incredible damage by a simple little round piece of lead. I've shot deer throught the heart with a 12 gauge slug and have never seen damage like this. He only ran about 30 yards and dropped all the other deer have dropped in their tracks.
I will never go back to "modern" hunting with my shotgun, in fact I now have turkeys in my area and am going to get a smoothbore flinter.
IT'S NOT ABOUT THE ANTLERS IT'S ABOUT THE CHALLENGE!

 

[WSmitty01]

Brand new here, but you would be amazed at the accuracy and energy of the muzzleloader. I used to shoot a lot of primitive & silouette shoots out in New Mexico. I've seen steel rams taken down at 200 yds easily with the .54's and .72's, I've also seen 10" cast iron skillets knocked completely off the post at well over 100 yards with the big .72's. Granted these were high end primitive muzzleloader's with 1 in 66' and 1 in 72" twist with match barrels. I myself shoot an Allen/Uberti 53 cal Hawkin with 32" barrel with 1 in 66" twist. With a .520 ball I can string 3 shots in less than an inch off of the bench at 50 yards. I have shot 2" groups at 100 yards with black powder (not the new stuff) with buckhorn sights and silver blade front. My best on the rams was 4 out of 5 at 200 yards, with 130 grains of powder. All it takes is practice, practice, practice. To really see the effectiveness of these guns go to a rendezvous and watch these primitive shooters!!! Their shooting will amaze you!!
Check out this site:
http://www.nmlra.org/Article1.htm

 

[SquirrelsaurusR]

I don't profess to be very experienced but Im not a liar...

I wasn't doubting your word. I was just wondering what rifle/sights you're using. I know the accuracy of those Lyman sights, because I used to have a percussion GPR, 1:30 twist, with those same sights on it as yours. But I sold the whole set-up because it was too 'high tech' for me. ::

This spring I'm going to replace it with a .54, 1:60 twist, flint GPR. :thumbsup:

 

[tg]

"Hey! A controversial issue and everyone is behaving like a gentlemen".........Very commendable for this subject!'

Well I'm not bashfull and have never been called a gentleman...but here we go again, trying to have a converstaion about "Traditional ML hunting".........with modern type sights.... as the man said when the Hindenberg went down........"Oh! the inhumanity!" I really doubt that there will ever be enough people who really want a site, group, Org or whatever that is truely traditional in nature. Good thoughts on the range /effectiveness thing though despite the seemingly unavoidable modern twists that always has to be a part of it........oh, now I remember we have re-defined traditional to make anything OK..as Eric Cartman wouild say...sc^%& you guys, I'm going home.....

 

[wtilenw]

TG,
I apologize if I have offended you. The gun/ sight combo that I use is legal in a "Traditional Muzzleloader Only " hunt, here in Idaho. I actually went with the peep sights to have the best chance to test the accuracy of the different loads and patch combonations I was experimenting with in the beginning. Im sure that as I develop my skills I may add some more challenges for myself and may lean toward a more " Traditional " style. A Flintlock is a VERY intriguing idea to me now and up until several years ago I would have sworn that would never be the case. I really am just trying to learn more than I know now and not trying to change any definitions .
Idaho PRB