Round Ball Energy Ft. Lbs. for Hunting

[Seeking Trad Deer]

I shoot a 50 Caliber Lyman DeerStalker with a .490 round ball, .020 patch, and 80 Grains of FFG. I am thinking of a 54 caliber for more Ft. Pounds. I like to stick to 800 as a minimum for deer which is only 45 yards with my current set up. More powder will not help bacause I cannot burn it in my carbine. Anyone know where I can get some ballistics tables to compare my set up verses a similar set up in a 54 caliber?

 

[jethro224]

The Lyman muzzleloading handbook gives lots of ballistics. Should be just what you're looking for.

I own the book but really don't put that much stock in ballistics. It takes surprisingly little energy to put a round ball thru both lungs of a whitetail. Bigger numbers or bigger balls are no cure for poor accuracy. Just take all of your shots at a distance where you are capable of keeping them in the vitals. :thumbsup: :v

PS. And only take shots where the vitals are unobstructed.

 

[Seeking Trad Deer]

Thanks Jethro...I don't own that book. If you can will you look up a 50 and a 54 caliber roundball with 80 grains FFG and let me know the energy at 75 yards.

You are right about shot placement. I am a serious traditional archer and know that importance well from my archery pursuits.

Just the same if I can put a ball through a deer consistently at 50 yards with the same model gun...I'd rather use the one with more ft. pounds of energy for a quicker kill.

 

[ffffg]

i use the balistics calculator at [url] http://biggameinfo.com/index.aspx[/url] first you will need the ball weight and actual diameter and balistic coeficeint.. the bal coef can be calculated at [url] http://www.uslink.net/~tom1/calcbc/calcbc.htm#calculator[/url] .. put in the cal for 50 that would be .490, then weight about 177, or whatever your shooting,, check cast bullet and check round ball and enter and press calcualte,, this will give a bal coef for the .50 of about .068.... fadaldas shows speed for 80 gr 2f load in one of thier guns at about 1700, i use .8 for sight height, put that in the balistic calculater with temp and eleveation and calculate.. it gave me 494 foot pounds at 75 yards 45 degrees 1000 feet elevation... for the .50 cal......... a .54 with 80 gr ff vel is about 1525 mv taking averages from fadaldas book..(they vary alot) bal coef is aprox .074 with 225 grains and .530 diameter. this gives a foot pounds of 568 for me at 75 yards with 80 grains of 2fg with a vel of aprox 1068fps... .. listen to what the guys are telling you about shot placement giving you the kill,,.. altho the .54 doesnt show a lot more power, it has more over the .50 than what the calculations will show.. you may be able to up your velocity on your .50 to get the extra power your looking for.. and a flatter trajectory.. also i dont just arbitrarily pick a powder load for a gun, u shoot what she likes,, (not your wife :rotf but what the gun tells you to use.. all of them over 45 cal are disigned to easily kill a deer at its best accuarcy potential.. //////// my .54 like 80 grains fffg. thats what i guess about 1700 fps muzzle vel, and at 75 yards that gives about 663 muzzel engergy .. at 9 1/2 pounds it doesnt kick and it shoots very well.... you can plug all these into beartooths calculator for thornally stopping power . [url] http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/thornily.htm?v1=225&v3=.530&v2=1068[/url] .. and it will show your power for that load.. it shows your 80 grain ffg in the .54 (.530 ball , 225 grains 1525 fps muzzel, 1068fps at 75 yards) is more than fine for deer at a factor of 74.... thats in modern rifle terms.. the reason it has this power is the bullet weight and caliber of muzzeloaders add up big in shooting live animals.. something modern shooters dont figure in when they look at ftlbs of energy... its alot of fun to look at and figure etc, but again listen to the guys who shoot deer every year with muzzeloaders, that is where you get your facts.. do the figures for the thornally with your .50 at 75 yards,and see what it gives.. good luck dave... :grin:

 

[playfarmers]

This is the best I could come up with.
.50 cal Trade rifle 28" barrel 80g 2f-1680 fps
ME-1110 Energy 100 yards 390
.54 Renagade 26" barrel 90g 2f--1246 fps
ME-1320 Energy 100 yards 480

That is what the book says, but I know for a fact that a .495 round ball from my Deerstalker will go in one side of a big whitetail that is standing 100 yards away, smash through both lungs and exit the other side. I have used this rifle for the past 14 years and have learned to believe in the mighty round ball. That said I have just ordered a new .54 Trade rifle.

 

[BS]

A 50, then a 54, then that will start looking small.....and you will buy a 62cal.........that is why I shoot a .73 cal rifle. :grin:

Love them Large Bores!

Like Tim the Tool Man Taylor says: More Power!

 

I put a .490 speer round ball right through two ribs of a buck at 75 paces a few years back from a rested position. He ran about 50 yards and piled up. I have yet to ever recover a ball. Oh yeah and that was over 80 grains of Elephant 2f.

Billy

 

[Slamfire]

Kinetic energy figures don't have anything to do with killin' game, even though most State game regulations think they do. The key is enough velocity to penetrate the hide and the biggest bone yore ball might encounter. :winking: However if you feel more confident with a 500 ft lbs, minimum, feel free to shoot one. The .54 will serve you well. :v

 

[faw3]

What it comes down to is about everyone is right Ive got the book here too, 80grs at 75 yds is about a trade off of more speed from the 50 = the 54 weight. Got that? If you hit the right spot at 75 yds they are going to drop. Fred :hatsoff:

 

[dodgecity]

I don't pay much attention to numbers. I began hunting with muzzleloading guns and round ball in the 1970s. Took my first deer with a .45 in 1973. My next one was taken with a .58. I've also scored with .69 and a "bess". My current favorite is a .62 smoothbore. Taylor knock down values, etc. don't really apply. Deer and bear are no harder to kill today than they were 200 years ago. A half inch or 3/4 inch hole through the lights does the job, and tables do not do justice to the lethality of a soft lead round ball.

 

[faw3]

VERY TRUE "and tables do not do justice to the lethality of a soft lead round ball. " FRED :hatsoff:

 

[jethro224]

Well, I woulda looked 'em up for ya but it looks like a couple other guys saved me the trouble. Great bunch of guys here who are always glad to help out. :hatsoff:

Nothin' wrong with a little more power than you need, and I really like my .54s, and if you NEED a new .54 for deer huntin'... you can't have too many guns anyway. :winking:
pssst... yer a blackpowder addict! :rotf: Go order the gun.
Next year you can order the .58 'cause you might go elk or bear huntin'.
Oh yeah, don't forget the .36 you'll be needing for squirrels and such.
Might need a shotgun too... :hmm:

I shot the biggest buck of my life this year at 100 yards with a .50 caplock GPR using a .490 round ball/.015 patch/70 grains of 2f Goex. He was slightly quartering away when the ball entered the rear portion of his ribcage, took out both lungs, and exited the other side. He went 3 steps.
He's a biggun! Check the pic further down in this forum under "The only problem hunting with my GPR"(or something like that).

And, by the way, Welcome to the forum! :hatsoff:

 

[jdixon]

I shoot a 50 Caliber Lyman DeerStalker with a .490 round ball, .020 patch, and 80 Grains of FFG. I am thinking of a 54 caliber for more Ft. Pounds. I like to stick to 800 as a minimum for deer which is only 45 yards with my current set up. More powder will not help bacause I cannot burn it in my carbine. Anyone know where I can get some ballistics tables to compare my set up verses a similar set up in a 54 caliber?

I think after a point, too much emphasis is put on ballistic energy for hunting. Sure, too small is no good, but when we are talking .490 cal. round balls, the distance from the muzzle at which they are no longer effective is usually well past the range that most of us can effectively hit the target (iron sights here mind you). Here is a good for instance - the rib cage and vitals area of an average deer is roughly the same size as that of a full grown human - I think we can all agree on that. Now, do you feel that a point blank shot into a human chest cavity with a .375 Magnum handgun round, out of a 4" barrel is likely to be a killing shot - again in most circumstances I believe we would could all agree yes. Now, what is the muzzle energy of a .375 Magnum round out of a 4" gun? Depending on the round used it runs between 475 and 675 fpe. Now compare that to our .50 cal muzzleloder rifle - Most of your .490 loads will be carrying more than 475 fpe out to the 100 yrd. mark. Essentially then, your .50 still carries the authority of a 4" .375 Magnum at point blank range even out to 100 yrds. Given these points when comparing a .50 and a .54, the nod for me would go to the one that I could shoot better, not which one has the most energy.

 

Deer don't take a lot of killing. Round balls kill completely out of proportion to their paper ballistics. A minimum of 1000 ft. lbs. of energy as required by some states for deer is silliness. "It ain't what you hit 'em with, it's where you hit 'em". I don't believe a 54 is going to kill any faster than a 50, given the same shot placement.

Having said that, I sure like my 54's and haven't owned or used a 50 in over 10 years. I'd say get a 54, then as others have said, next year you can get a 58, then a 62, etc., etc. It is a progressive addiction, ya know!

Vic

 

[romeoh]

Maybe this software can help you to calculate the energy of your muzzleloader:
[url] http://www.schuetzenverein-eisenach.de/Ballistik2.htm[/url]

Many greetings from germany

romeoh

 

[jdixon]

Another little tactic that will generate for you more down range energy with any of your muzzleloaders -if you have not done so already switch to Swiss powder for your hunting loads. Here are some stats from a test I ran this fall using a .50 cal w/ a .490 round ball using four differnt types of powder:
Goex M/V ”“ 1693 fps / 1161 fpe ”“ ES 41.6 / SD 21.49 ”“ 100 yrds. ”“ 1040 fps / 425 fpe.
Goex Express ”“ 1757 fps / 1214 fpe ”“ ES 26.3 / SD 17.5 ”“ 100 yrds. ”“ 1053 fps / 435 fpe
Graf ”“ 1577 fpe / 975 fpe ”“ ES 9.67 / SD 4.58 ”“ 100 yrds. ”“ 994 fps / 389 fpe
Swiss ”“ 1877 fps / 1385 fpe ”“ ES 25.1 / SD 13.9 ”“ 100 yrds ”“ 1096 fps / 471 fpe
see post -[url] http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/200150/post/337425/hl//#337425[/url]

As you can see - using the same load - Swiss had 224 fpe more at the muzzle than did regular Goex. That is more than a 16% increase in power. Swiss will have more flexibility to increasing your load as well due to its faster rate of burn, though your spread will begin to increase as you do this.

Just something else to think about. Cheers :hatsoff:

 

[Mad Professor]

J.R., you were talking 357 magnum revolver cartridge correct? The onlt 375 I've seen for pistols is the 375 JDE they put in some Thopmson contenders and thats a whole different kind of pistol :shocked2:

 

[roundball]

Longest deer shot I've taken was 70 yards...sitting on the edge of an old loggers road a buck stepoped out into the open road and stopped broadside, .54cal ball made a complete passthrough of the heart & lungs, he fell in sight after a 25-35yd sprint.

One time a .45cal shot was at 60 yards, hit a rib going in, recovered the .440 bulging the hide on the far side one time, but I've yet to recover a .50/.54/.58/.62 caliber ball...all passthroughs.

Nothing I've ever seen in print accurately demonstrates the power and effectiveness of a round soft lead ball...love this hobby !
:thumbsup:

 

[Seeking Trad Deer]

Wow is this ever a great site! I can't thank you all enough for your knowledge. As you can tell I don't have anywhere near your experience and I appreciate your willingness to share with me.

I used to shoot my fair share of deer with compound bows and a 30.06 rifle. Then I didn't find the compound hard enough so I switched to a wooden recurve bow and yes...that is definitely hard enough. It is my favorite hunting althogh I don't get 20% the deer I did with my compound. Been doing the wood bow about seven years now.

I bought my .50 Caliber ten years ago and only once shot at a deer which I missed at 15 yards. It was a chip shot that I should have made. Haven't really used it much over ten years. However, about two years ago I found myself not able to pull the trigger on my 30.06 on doe. It just didn't seem fair...too easy for me. I left the rifle home during the regular rifle season this year and didn't go out. Now I am moving to the flintlock and really enjoying hunting with a gun again. Even though I have been out with it the last four days (on vacation this week) and have only seen a deer on one of the days and it was running away from me .

So I guess I just wanted to thank you who have posted above and Ron LaClair and let you know where I am coming from and such. Feel free to teach me as much as my little brain can absorb.

A couple questions...

Is there anyway to tell how much powder I can fully burn in my little short barrell Lyman DeerStalker?

I used 2F based on the suggestion of Dixon Muzzleloaders. The info on 3F energy above is appealing to me. Can anyone educate me on the difference of these powders and the pro's and con's of one over the other.

This swiss powder is also interesting. Can this be used in my muzzleloader and where does one get it. What are the pro's and con's of that as well.

Any information is appreciated. I have more confidence already in what I have read above about the great killing power of the round ball. Thanks all!

Mike :bow:

 

[playfarmers]

You are very welcome for any assistance we can give, and yes this is a great site.
As far as building a better load, I think you have a good one now. My load is a .495 and 80g of Pyrodex. I have found that a felt wad or as they call them "bore button", will help save the patch from burn out on a hot load. All you can do is try other loads and your rifle will tell you what it likes. The tighter the ball/patch fits the bore the better it seems to work. If you really want more power you can try a ball-et, or a Mini ball. I tried the Ball-et and they where accurate in my rifle.