Round Ball Energy Ft. Lbs. for Hunting

[mart]

These fellows are giving you some good advice. Far too much emphasis is placed on energy, to the point that even some pundits years ago promoted it in the, "event of a less than ideal shot placement".

An aquaintence of mine took a ninety pound whitetail doe at less than fifty yards with a 300 Weatherby and 150 grain bullets. The bullet struck the chest cavity with over 3000 fp's of "energy". The doe simply trotted off a few yards at the shot as if nothing had happened, showing not the slightest evidence of a hit. The shooter was about to shoot again when the doe collapsed. I share this not to promote the round ball over any other projectile but to illustrate that energy in not necessarily the answer, placing a projectile in the appropriate place is. Had this shooter not placed the bullet correctly that doe may not have been recovered. Would she have died any quicker to a roundball placed in the same spot. That could be debated around the campfire or the forum for years with no concrete answer. Energy is important in that you need enough to propel the projectile through the hide and the vitals, which roundball hunting loads from 45 caliber on up do possess. Don't get to caught up in the energy side of roundballs, they don't compare well in that respect to modern rifle bullets. Know, rather, that they have been used successfully on all manner of big game for centuries and are very effective when coupled with proper shot placement. Mart

 

[mudburn]

The amount of energy a bullet has when it reaches the target may be important, but to my uninformed brain it seems that a more important figure would be the amount of energy transferred to the target. So, if it was possible to determine the amount of energy the bullet leaves the target with in order to subtract and figure that which was absorbed by the target, that would be a more important statistic. There doesn't seem to be any realiable way to figure that, but there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to show that more than enough energy is absorbed by the target to accomplish the objective.

Of course, I could be wrong as I'm far from any kind of expert on any of this. Just my musings.

Darryl

 

[paulvallandigham]

Darryl: YOu are correct, but you are also correct in observing that we have found no way to measure the amount of energy left in the deer's body when the ball exits on the other side. Its hard to get deer to stand in front of some kind of ball collector. I suppose this kind of thing could be done with live animals held captive in a frame and shot, but I can hear the PETA folks screaming even now. I don't think the government would all this kind of testing to be done, unless the animals were unconscious, and would not feel pain.

Round ball kill because they expand quickly on impact, the ball does not tear, or split, but rather oozes out of shape, staying together as it travels through the vital organs. People used to shooting modern guns forget too easy that a .45 caliber round ball is 45 CALIBER to begin with, much larger than most .30 caliber expanding bullets every reach in size after hitting game. A .45 cal round ball will expand quickly to over 50 caliber in diameter, cutting more flesh, and leaving a larger primary wound channel than that .30 caliber wonder bullet could ever dream of leaving. The .30 cal modern bullet kills because at speed, it drags along a vacuum at the base of the bullet that creates a secondary wound channel of bruised and bled out tissue, much larger than the primary wound channel it leave. Its the shock to the system caused by this larger secondary wound channel that kills game so quickly.

The two systems are as different as night and day, but both work within their own limits of performance. Its not the ball's performance that we have to change: its the shooter's knowledge and understanding that velocity is not the primary factor in how a ball kills that we have to change.

 

[jethro224]

mudburn, you got it right on the nose! That .45 ball that roundball found just under the offside hide was really the ideal load for that shot. It got full penetration and dumped ALL of it's energy into that deer.

A small caliber bullet at high speed might hit the deer with over 1000 ft/lbs but only dump 250 before it exits. All wasted energy? Could be. :hmm:

 

[Headhunter]

If you can draw a bead on it, and hit it, a 490 ball will kill it.

Not a bunch of sifering needed.

Headhunter

 

[wolfram]

This is a real interesting thread on PRB performance. I will throw in that KE is not a good gauge for game performance. There's an interesting article by Randy Wakeman on the net titled "Terminal Performance in Muzzleloading. The article is here:
[url] http://randywakeman.com/ballltd74.htm[/url]

I think that the comment from Dr. Martin Fackler, a well known terminal ballistics expert, on this article sums it up pretty good:

liked your article: it makes many good points. The KE fallacy is so pervasive that it needs to be corrected as often as possible. The arrow is a good example: I think it helps to drive the point home if you mention how much KE a hunting arrow has (a 500 grain arrow traveling at 200 ft/sec has a KE of 44 ft lb). Thus the largest game in the world (including elephant) is hunted and killed with a projectile having only about 2/3 the KE of a 22 Short bullet. That should give pause to even the most ardent KE advocates.

I think that Fackler's analogy drives home the point that KE doesn't kill.

 

[Seeking Trad Deer]

I talked to Dixon Muzzleloader today about a 54 caliber. His contention was that a 45 and a 50 are much better because of their velocity. He went as far to say that a 45 is better than a 62 which really surprised me. I still think I am going to get a .54 caliber cause like you guys said...you can't have too many guns :winking: Guy I hunted with tonight was using a Cabelas .54 Caliber flintlock he bought eight years ago and is thinking of selling. He paid $180 for it but had some fiber optic sites installed. I am thinking of offering him $150 for the gun. Maybe more...don't know much about these guns.

 

[jdixon]

A couple questions...

Is there anyway to tell how much powder I can fully burn in my little short barrell Lyman DeerStalker?

I used 2F based on the suggestion of Dixon Muzzleloaders. The info on 3F energy above is appealing to me. Can anyone educate me on the difference of these powders and the pro's and con's of one over the other.

This swiss powder is also interesting. Can this be used in my muzzleloader and where does one get it. What are the pro's and con's of that as well.

Any information is appreciated. I have more confidence already in what I have read above about the great killing power of the round ball. Thanks all!

Mike :bow:

First off kudos on your hunting ethics and desire to make the hunt a challenge. Recurve - man that is one I haven't even tried yet! Good show mate.

Swiss powder - it is regular black powder - though it looks a little different than Goex, more silver in color. You can use it in any muzzleloader you own. To get it you will probably have to order that off the internet - check the resources forum on this site for dealers who sell in bulk. A high end retailer like Dixon's (got to get up there someday!) may have it in stock. Off of the net - there will be haz-mat fees and minimal order weights to deal with. Get some friends together and split up a 25 lb. shipment is the cheapest route. Swiss will run more - about $20.00 a pound, but for a hunting load I have not found any better.

2F vs 3F - in a .50 cal. you can go either way and not be wrong. The 3F loads will give you a little more steam. You will get a lot of opinions on this one. I use 3F in my .50 (75 grains), a buddy of mine uses 3F in his .54 (90 grains of Swiss is his hunting load with a PRB).

As for how much powder to use - to really work up an accurate load you will need to spend some time shooting through a chronograph. If you don't want to do this there is an old rule of thumb that I have found is almost always on for PBR loads. The rule is use 3 grins of powder for every 7 grains of projectile weight. e.g. - a .177 grain .490 round ball 177/7 = 25.2 X 3 = 75.8. In other words 76 grains of powder would be a good charge behind this round.

Finally - someone else was asking about my .375 stats on the eariler post - yes these are .375 handgun cartridge rounds - specifically out of a S&W Model 66-2 w/ 4" barrel that we tested at the P.D. several years ago when we were still using wheel guns (ha' yes - the good 'ol days)

 

[roundball]

I use Goex 3F exclusively in .40/.45/.50/.54cals, plus a .62cal smoothbore...

I mainly use Goex 3F as it's faster and there's less barrel time for the payload.

Less time in the barrel means less chance for muzzle wander before exit.

Less muzzle wander = improved accuracy.

In addition, Goex 3F fouls a lot less for me than 2F.

 

[ffffg]

find a load that shoots well with two shots without wiping, first with clean oiled barrel, and second loaded just after firing. use the load that when shot on paper shoots best at 75 yards tell you what to use, 3f, 2f, 80 grains, 75 grains, 85 grains, etc.. you may need to wipe after one shot, some guns dont need it, some do.. only way to find out is to get out there.. be sure to shoot some targets in your hunting temperatures. dave...

 

[Seeking Trad Deer]

My powder is Elephant. I don't see anyone mentioning it...what is the difference between Elephant FFG and Goex FFG?

I will be picking up some Swiss Powder from Dixon. They stock the Powder.

 

[bezoar]

From what your using your doing pretty good. If you want to get more performance switch to a saboted hollowpoint or a conical.

The coefficient manure and minimum velocity and minimum state allowed bullet diameter is a joke for blackpowder. These only deal with how well a bullet will fly during the time it takes to reach the target, as well as how it will rotate inside the target.
For some reason a roundball or a conical or a solid saboted round from a muzzle loader does not rotate inside, it just expands and dumps energy.
Look at it this way, soem states will allow you to hunt whitetail iwth a .25acp pocket pistol but wont let you use a crocket 32, that puts out better power, to hunt the same animal.

 

[Rebel]

The difference between Goex and Elephant is like night and day. I am really surprized that you are still shooting black powder if all you have had is Elephant powder.

 

[renovato]

Energy figures really don't mean much in muzzleloaders. It's not like you're going to get the hydrostatic shock damage that you'd get from a high power rifle moving at much higher velocities. If the ball penetrates properly, it doesn't matter what energy figures or velocity it has. It's not going to do "more" damage with more energy. Find the load that shoots best in your gun and use it. It'll do just fine.

 

[jdixon]

My powder is Elephant. I don't see anyone mentioning it...what is the difference between Elephant FFG and Goex FFG?

I will be picking up some Swiss Powder from Dixon. They stock the Powder.

I have never used Elephant. From those I know who have, their complaints about it kept me from ever buying the stuff. No matter now, I don't believe they even make it anymore. Do a search of the forum on Elephant powder, you may come up with some ballistics on the stuff - I don't have any figures on it off-hand. I would love to see your reaction the first time you touch off a load of Swiss in your muzzleloader after shooting Elephant all this time - you'll be amazed at what you have been missing.

While @ Dixon's pick up some regular Goex, it will beat your Elephant all to pieces also, about 1/2 the price of Swiss and does 80% - 85% of what the same amount of Swiss will do. I do all my practice and target stuff with Goex. Biggest reason to buy Goex, it is made in the States and others will correct me is I am wrong, it is the last black powder manufacturer in the States - lets do all we can to support them (wish they would come up with something to compete with Swiss however)

 

[Herb]

Seeking T.D.- Your Lyman Deerstalker has a 24" barrel with a 1 in 48" twist. Jethro 224's reference is to Lyman's Black Powder Handbook and Loading Manual. The 2nd edition, page 178, lists .490 roundball loads for this barrel with up to 120 grains of Goex 2F and 3F, same for Elephant brand with not much difference. So more powder than your 80 grains will certainly burn efficiently in this barrel. Efficiently? Yes. 80 grains of Goex 2F gave 1538 fps, 90 gave 1580, 100 gave 1622, 110 gave 1707 and 120 grains gave 1792 fps. By 10 grain increments, the velocity increase is 42, 42, 85 and 85. In this book, all loads with all powders and bullets in calibers .54 and smaller go no higher than 120 grains, except the .451 goes to 130 grains and there are some 3, 50-grain Pyrodex pellet loads in .50 caliber (150 grains).

You're worried about pressure? 120 grains of Goex 2F with this barrel gave 7,800 psi, and 120 grains of Goex 3F gave 10,800 psi. Most of the maximum pressures for the .50 caliber in different barrel lengths and twists run 12 to 18,000 psi. There are 187 total powder-bullet load tables, and 64 peak pressure loads go into the 20,000 psi range and one to 33,500 psi.

If you want to shoot more powder, muzzle blast and recoil and maybe acceptable hunting accuracy (say even up to 4 to 6" groups at 75 yards?) will probably limit how much powder you want to burn. The experience of many succesful deer hunters, including reported here, is that 80 grains is adequate for deer. I have a friend here who has killed 27 mule deer with his .54 Green River Hawken, using 83 grains of Goex 2F (because that is how much his measure holds!), which I chronographed at 1505 fps. All deer were shot "through the boiler room." Which, as discussed above, is very important.

I have a Green River Leman with a 34" .54 barrel that I loaded with 120 grains of Goex 2F and a .530 round ball for mule deer hunting. This gives 1860 fps with 1690 ft.lbs. (fpe) of muzzle energy, which falls off to 710 fpe at 100 yards. Well, I shot a small 4-point mule deer buck in the neck with this at about 90 yards, and the ball literally bounced off his neck, apparently not wounding him in the slightest. I found him, unhurt, a couple of hours later and killed him with a shot through the spine behind the shoulders. There was a hole about 4" in diameter blasted in the hair of the neck, down to about a one inch hole to the flesh, with no bleeding. I couldn't get the post to come up, but there is a picture of it in "Traditional Muzzleloader Hunting" forum here, my post no. 16941, 05/13/04.

Now as to the difference between 2F and 3F: Lyman's Black Powder Handbook (1975 or 1st edition) details pressure and velocity testing of black powder loads. They compared Gearhart-Owen 3F and 2F in a 43" .54 caliber pressure barrel. They shot 5-shot strings of from 40 to 180 grains of each, in 20 grain increments. They state "Weight for weight the 3F does produce greater velocity and pressure."

CHARGE...........VELOCITY.........PRESSURE
140 gr 2F........1779 fps..........8500 LUP (lead units pressure)
100 gr 3F........1740 fps.........11700 LUP
diff. 40 grs...........39 fps...........3200 LUP

"Nearly equal velocities are obtained through the use of a notably lighter charge of 3F powder. Pressure, while up, is not at all alarming and this loading will minimize fouling- an important benefit to the roundball shooter. We then decided to use FFFg in all but .58 and .75 caliber during the Rifle and Musket test. FFg would be used in .58, .75, 12 gauge and 20 gauge."

Note this is Gearhart-Owen, no longer available. Lyman's 2nd edition shows for a .54 caliber with round ball and 120 grains of Goex 2F 1803 fps at 8300 psi and 120 grains of Goex 3F at 1735 fps and 8300 psi. Yes, the 3F gave LESS velocity and the same pressure as the 2F! In the .50 caliber, 120 grains of Goex 2F gave 1792 fps at 9900 psi and 120 grains of Goex 3F gave 1830 fps at 11800 psi.

Yes, you can use Swiss powder in your rifle. It is likely cleaner burning, has more energy for equal weight compared to Goex or Elephant, but is more expensive, like about $8 a pound more.

Here is a test I did with a Joel Ferree (western PA) caplock I built with a 38" Green Mountain swamped barrel, using 80 grains of each powder, five shot averages, .490 roundball:

Goex 2F..........1763 fps...........33 fps extreme spread
Goex 3F..........1936 fps...........24 fps ES
Swiss 2F..........1922 fps...........25 fps ES
Swiss 3F..........2072 fps...........35 fps ES.

All that being said, I agree with the people above- if you want a .54, get it! But aim for the rib cage!

 

[Seeking Trad Deer]

Wow...that is a lot of information and I certainly appreciate it. It will take me some rereading to digest it all which I will do with pleasure. One thing that confuses me is the roundball bouncing off the neck of a deer. Not sure what the moral of this story is...don't use the roundball or get all the powder behind it you can for penetration? Help me figure out what you made of this please.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Anecdotal stories from hunts are hard to judge, since the shooter may not be totally aware of all the circumstances involved in that " Ball bouncing off the neck of the deer". Most likely, the main charge in the barrel did not burn completely, because of moisture, or fouling from oil, moisture, or a combination of both. Because of the concentration that a shooter has on his sights, and the deer, he may not hear the gun report accurately and realize that something was wrong with it. He then merely reports this "Iron Plated Deer Neck", and from then on, concludes he should nly shoot round ball at the ribcage of a deer.

I shot a deer at about 5 yds several years ago, after a day long sit in a tree stand. My powder charge took on moisture through the vent, and I COULD hear the difference with the gun fired. The ball bounced off his shoulder, but he fell down, or was knocked down, got up and trotted away, while I tried to figure out How I was going to reload my gun in a tree!

Now, I know that gun and powder charge is more than sufficient to drive a round ball through both shoulders of a deer at a much longer distance than that short range. My mistake- and it was MY mistake- was in not plugging my touch hole with a toothpick all day long. I was cutting corners, " Because it really wasn't that damp out," I told myself! It was that damp in the morning when I went out to the stand, but the sun came out, and the warm air out of the SW came in, and by the time I fired my shot, it was fairly dry even in the shadows of the woods.

I know of many deer kills with PRB through the neck. Its not my favorite shot, because you can shoot a deer through the neck and do no real damage to it, just about as often as you can drop it stone dead in its tracks. A 90 yd. shot at a deer's neck is a very small target. I would not take it with my gun, even off a rest.

 

[Herb]

The moral is, don't shoot a big game animal in the neck. There is a mass of muscle and this full power ball literally bounced off the buck's neck. No wimpy wet loads, no excuses, it literally bounced off his neck. Of course deer are killed with neck shots, but this one wasn't.

Wish I had thought to photograph that hole in the neck hair, but I didn't, and my field photos show the left side of the buck. Dr. Gary White of the old Green River Rifle Works had the same thing happen when he shot a Dall sheep, I think it was, in the neck in Alaska. Another friend experienced this in shooting a mule deer buck.

 

[Seeking Trad Deer]

When I think about it the neck does have a lot of hard muscles when I process a deer. I am not good enough to ever try for a neck shot so I'll take your advice and aim for the boiler room behind the shoulder.

There is so much good information from this post it is more informative than most books I read. I'm gonna print it and save it when it wraps up which hopefully won't be for a couple days yet.