Maybe you and your coffee drinking buddies could invent something to create centered hollow points and other designs on the noses of roundballs and other lead projectiles? Might look like this.
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Round ball spin.
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Dave Dworshak
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Why have I never bought one of those , where do you find them ? I think I can rehab some of my mistakeMaybe you and your coffee drinking buddies could invent something to create centered hollow points and other designs on the noses of roundballs and other lead projectiles? Might look like this.
(over Harding) rather than melting down and softening . Never mind that would be distorting the nose and most likely screw up the perfectly cast bullet , just because the BHN was not achieved . /Ed
bronko220002
45 Cal.
I do believe that round balls don't obturate but I don't agree that the gasses are forced sideways! That is illogical. The gasses will surround the base of the ball/patch equally. Just look at the patches to validate this. There is equal burning of the patch below the ball. If the gasses were forced sideways then the patch would show evidence of this on one side or another.
64Springer
75 Cal.
The curvature of the ball disrupts the gas at the very moment of the BOOM.
The patch is subjected to burning as long as it's in the bore.
Accounting for burn marks everywhere.
The patch is subjected to burning as long as it's in the bore.
Accounting for burn marks everywhere.
What ‘pushes’ the patched roundball out the bore if the gasses are forced sideways? Seems if the gases were ‘forced sideways’ we would have a stuck ball situation.
64Springer
75 Cal.
How are we going to have a stuck ball situation when those expanding gasses have to go somewhere.
That is my question, as you say the gases are being ‘forced sideways’, and not pushing against the roundball, thus the the roundball doesn’t obturate. Guess that would mean there’s more ‘force’ on a flat bottom bullet in your world? I am only asking for an explanation.
bronko220002
45 Cal.
Gases being forced sideways is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. And as far as turbulance, that's another illusion. If the projectile, be it ball or flat based bullet is placed over the charge as it should, then the force created by the gases will be equal tall around. The reason a flat base obtruates is because there is an equal pressure on the base of the bullet and the only way the material can move is outward toward the bore walls. With a ball the pressure is still equal but it is trying to force material to the ball's center. But because the ball cannot compress to any noticable degree it doesn't obturate.
Not to you in particular, just that your post was the first one I found to quote, but this word does not mean what everyone using it on this thread thinks it means. "Upset" is the word you're looking for, it's a metallurgical term like when you planish metal or punch around a loose pin.
(since this thread stopped being useful halfway through the first page when people started picking on every obscure thing they could find to disagree with in any given reply and start a good bicker).
Sincerely, your Sensitive Snowflake,
Sorry, just had to troll, carry on!
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This technology has been around for 100's of years. Don't over think it
Actually the rear end of the ball acts like a dome against the pressure of the gasses. It will stand up to much more pressure than will the flat of a conical, and a conical tends to have more mass pushing backwards, causing the pressure to go higher than with the round ball. The soft lead then "gives" and obturates into the rifling when a conical is used.
LD
LD
"upsets". "Obturation" of the bore is what happens if/when the projectile upsets under pressure.
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Okay, who is going to make wadcutters by cut ting roundballs perfectly in half to cut perfect circles in the target?
Post your results here Monday morning at the very latest…
;-)
Post your results here Monday morning at the very latest…
;-)
We will do that as soon as we get this hollow point thing worked out. Will set up a time line at the coffee shop in the morning.
With a well poured cast round ball it should be reasonably well balanced so would spin on it's axis. If you were to drill a hole, I would doubt that you would get perfectly in line with the axis so now you have a unbalanced ball, plus you also have the issue with lining the hole perfectly centered in the bore. Not much chance of doing that once let alone every single shot, I would expect a target that looked like a shotgun pattern instead of a rifles group.
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Some may look right at this photograph and still not understand...But oh well.
Here's a fully upset/obturated .570 round ball kicked in the pants with 120 grains of Olde Eynsford.
Gases don't slam into the back of the ball, the powder column does.
The "solid" power column of the slow burning black powder is what causes obturation.
Gases compress, and that's why we don't see obturation with smokeless powder, because smokeless turns to a gas before the bullet even breaks the crimp.
Here it is,...embossed with the patch, flat backed, and fully expanded to fit the rifling grooves.
Here's a fully upset/obturated .570 round ball kicked in the pants with 120 grains of Olde Eynsford.
Gases don't slam into the back of the ball, the powder column does.
The "solid" power column of the slow burning black powder is what causes obturation.
Gases compress, and that's why we don't see obturation with smokeless powder, because smokeless turns to a gas before the bullet even breaks the crimp.
Here it is,...embossed with the patch, flat backed, and fully expanded to fit the rifling grooves.
You honestly have that completely backwards
BP is instant, like an explosive. Smokeless is slow burning, with varying rates.
Your right about the crimp, but that's a variable that many rifle hand loaders don't use.
Traditional BP arms and smokeless cartridge are two different worlds. A lot of modern cartridge hand loaders are confused when they try our old guns because the things they've learned don't directly apply.
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I shoot a lot of very hard wheel-weight balls from my Kolonial. The hard balls seriously crater 1/2" mildsteel targets that we use on our woods walk. I cast the balls with a Lyman mold that leaves quite a sprue. Upon examination of the craters in the steel, it is very clear to see that the sprue is still leading the charge by its' perfect imprint in the bottom of the crater. Thereby showing the ball remained on its rifling axis.
Here is a lead .457rb recovered from a whitetail buck, that I shot with a Dragoon revolver. Although the nose is still round, the slight ring left by the loading lever captured tissue and began to expand the ball.
Obviously with the revolver the rifling is engaged at the forcing cone... but this does show that the ball was still rotating nicely on its rifling axis.
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The back is not flat, and you can plainly see the patch imprints from the rifling on the side of the ball.
Both ball struck something hard and punched into or through, that's where the deformation happened.
You can't really use those as example of what happens during or because of internal ballistics.
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