round balls don't do well

[burlesontom]

I have been fighting with ball and patch in my 1:48 50 cal hawken, got to a good patch and lube but it does not shoot well at 100 yds. With a .495 ball and a .024 denim patch TOW mink oil lube at 48 yards I get a 2 1/2" grouping, but out at 100 it will spray in an 8" circle. Starting at 60 gr 3f all the way to 95 gr. raises the poi but still has a very good group at 48 but a big spread at 100. This patch n lube did the best at 48, but has no better pattern at 100. I wonder if a .490 would be better, has any one found an improvement with the smaller ball. (my bore is .500 .517 in the lands by slugging the bbl.
coupe

To me your ball and patch combination is way oversized. If you are having to hammer your ball down the bore your set up is too tight. I like a ball and patch that just takes a small bump to start down the bore and then slides with little resistance down to the powder. But I also use a firewall patch if using over 50grs of powder in a 50 caliber or larger bore.

A firewall patch is any patch material I have to absorb the heat of the flame from the powder charge. You don't need a super tight ball/patch to start with. If you have ever read the Lyman BP manual you read that the pressure from the exploding powder will foreshorten the round ball so it fits the bore and patch for a tight fit when leaving the bore. The firewall patch protects the ball patch.

I can pick up up my ball patches and they can almost be reused. The firewall patches are pretty much burned up. I get fine accuracy out to 90 yards which is about as far as I test. Beating the ball down the bore with a too tight ball/patch combo will almost guarantee poor accuracy.

 

[CapPopper]

I can shoot one minie at 100m and get a .577 inch group at best !

Pete

When I originally sighted it in for the minies we were shooting paper at 25 and after the first shot I thought they were just flying all over the place cause I couldn't see a difference on target. Put a couple more dots on and shot at them and the group was just so small that close one couldn't tell there was more than impact in the hole.

 

[morehops52]

I played the game you’re playing MANY years ago. Then I found a box a TC Maxis and my problem went away. My Hawken Iikes them and the deer never argue with them. If you shoot s lot you can cast your own

 

[mkabe]

1/48 was the preferred rifeling on most American guns back in the day. TC called it a compromise rate. How’s come?
Because conicals need fast but fairly shallow to engrave the lead. Ball needs deep to hold the patch.
Big ball, thin patch can easily strip the rifeling. Especially as you go up on the charge
I don’t like conicals in ml unless you have a gun in a style made for those. But that’s just opinion. You may find for your hunting load a conical servers your needs. And a maxi or REAL is a little easier to load.
However I’m with the guys above. Try smaller ball thicker patch. And don’t be afraid to shoot at the low end of your charges, 60 to 70 grain range.
Now I’m more of a dedicated smoothbore shooter these days, but do recall a saying that only accurate rifles are interesting
Try, Maxie’s,real or ball-ets to see how they do
And yes we tend to remember the best target we ever shot when Apollo was smiling on us, not the real life day to day shooting we get

This thread has been very enlightening and makes me feel much better about my crappy to just okay shooting. I am using Buffalo Bullet “Ball-ets”, 50 cal. 245 grains in my TC Gray Hawk. I got about 5+ bx of 50 ea. cheap during an end of season sale at Walmart years ago. I’ll push them with 90 grs. Pyrodex RS measured (458 Win. Mag case, or 70+ grs. Pyrodex P using a 45-70 case.
I don’t know for sure what kind of groups I could shoot, but I know not very impressive, yet I’ve taken two deer and a large boar hog with it.
Good enough for me! Thanks,

 

[towgunner11h]

In my T/C Silver Elite, I got best results with .018” patches and .490” round balls and 90 grains of Goex FFg. Cloverleaf groups at 50 yards and 2” groups at 100 yards.

 

[OldSmoky1967]

I have been fighting with ball and patch in my 1:48 50 cal hawken, got to a good patch and lube but it does not shoot well at 100 yds. With a .495 ball and a .024 denim patch TOW mink oil lube at 48 yards I get a 2 1/2" grouping, but out at 100 it will spray in an 8" circle. Starting at 60 gr 3f all the way to 95 gr. raises the poi but still has a very good group at 48 but a big spread at 100. This patch n lube did the best at 48, but has no better pattern at 100. I wonder if a .490 would be better, has any one found an improvement with the smaller ball. (my bore is .500 .517 in the lands by slugging the bbl.
coupe

I shoot a .490 ball with .015 pillow ticking patch, water or spit lube work fine. I don't have to beat the ball down the barrel, either.

 

[ETipp]

I played the game you’re playing MANY years ago. Then I found a box a TC Maxis and my problem went away. My Hawken Iikes them and the deer never argue with them. If you shoot s lot you can cast your own

Yes sir, that's what I do. Works for me and I have never lost a critter with them. IMO, most TC ML were made to shoot them.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

Most T/C guns with the 1:48 twist will shoot PRB tolerably well out to fifty to a hundred yards or so. I'm talking hunting accuracy, not target accuracy. If you plan to shoot targets and actually win contests, you need a 1:66 rifle. I agree that a .495 round ball with patches that thick are going to be too tight in most guns. You should not need a hammer in your possibles bag.

Also the rifling in most T/C guns is pretty shallow compared to guns that are actually intended to shoot PRB. As suggested by ETipp above, conical bullets and/or pistol bullets in plastic unmentionables will generally group better.

If you want to shoot PRB in that rifle, you might want to try a .490 RB with thinner patches. I generally shoot .490 RB with a patch that is .007" - .008" thick. I do use a ball and bullet starter, but by the time I get the ball four inches or so down the more, I no longer need it... and if I am honest about it, I probably could start and ram the PRB using only a hickory ramrod.

Also, 100 yards is too far for a PRB in my experience, but I am really old compared to most shooters and my eyes are not so good anymore.

I have a few guns that I routinely shoot PRB with; a Jonathan Browning Mountain Rifle in .54 caliber with a 1:66 twist, a T/C Renegade .54 with a 1:48 twist and a modified T/C Greyhawk .50 caliber with a 1:48 twist in a 12" barrel. I generally shoot thirty to fifty yards and my targets are usually plastic gallon jugs, milk cartons and maybe soda cans if I have ideal conditions and don't have any of my other preferred targets. If I can make one of those explode, I am happy.

When shooting paper with PRB at fifty yards, I get a pretty nice clover-leaf with the Browning... which is to be expected. The Renegade will group three inches and the Greyhawk will usually group four to five inches... which is an OK group with what amounts to a pistol-length barrel. I have tried and can hit a gallon jug at 100 yards with the previously mentioned Renegade and Browning, but not the Greyhawk. I would like to think, though, that I would have the personal discipline to pass a hundred yard shot at a whitetail that was a hundred yards down range... not that people hunting in Wisconsin generally get a shot that long anyway.

You can also play with different lubes if you want to, but different powders and different charges will have more to do with accuracy than the lube you use. I generally stay away from petroleum-based lubes and use anything from T/C Bore Butter to cooking spray. I don't really notice any difference.

To be really good with a PRB, you should aspire to acquire a gun with a 1:66 twist. Once you have that, you can start playing with the other acoutrement. used in this field of endeavor. Whatever you do, consistency is the real key here; do absolutely everything the same way every time. Even if you accomplish your apparent goal of a perfect clover-leaf at 100 yards, the deer I kill will be just as dead as the one you kill.... and I will not have had to work so hard.

May the force be with you....

 

[Relic shooter]

Numerous experienced forum members have very generous in sharing their knowledge on this link, your input is growing our sport.
I'm sure many of us have purchased bargains on lightly used BP firearms from disheartened shooters who lacked the loading information necessary to make them shoot accurately.

Forum input on this link has documented that at least reasonable accuracy can be obtained with any modern mass produced rifle or pistol with shallow rifling,, if the correct ball diameter, patch thickness & powder charge is used.

I've always felt that all BP firearm manufacturers should at least include basic printed loading instructions with each ML firearm or revolver with information that specifies a minimum/maximum starting black powder charges and what size ball or slug diameter and/or patch thickness combination is recommended.
Back in the 70s & 80s when I operated my storefront BP business no firearm buyer left the store without that basic information.
relic shooter

 

[mkabe]

Most T/C guns with the 1:48 twist will shoot PRB tolerably well out to fifty to a hundred yards or so. I'm talking hunting accuracy, not target accuracy. If you plan to shoot targets and actually win contests, you need a 1:66 rifle. I agree that a .495 round ball with patches that thick are going to be too tight in most guns. You should not need a hammer in your possibles bag.

Also the rifling in most T/C guns is pretty shallow compared to guns that are actually intended to shoot PRB. As suggested by ETipp above, conical bullets and/or pistol bullets in plastic unmentionables will generally group better.

If you want to shoot PRB in that rifle, you might want to try a .490 RB with thinner patches. I generally shoot .490 RB with a patch that is .007" - .008" thick. I do use a ball and bullet starter, but by the time I get the ball four inches or so down the more, I no longer need it... and if I am honest about it, I probably could start and ram the PRB using only a hickory ramrod.

Also, 100 yards is too far for a PRB in my experience, but I am really old compared to most shooters and my eyes are not so good anymore.

I have a few guns that I routinely shoot PRB with; a Jonathan Browning Mountain Rifle in .54 caliber with a 1:66 twist, a T/C Renegade .54 with a 1:48 twist and a modified T/C Greyhawk .50 caliber with a 1:48 twist in a 12" barrel. I generally shoot thirty to fifty yards and my targets are usually plastic gallon jugs, milk cartons and maybe soda cans if I have ideal conditions and don't have any of my other preferred targets. If I can make one of those explode, I am happy.

When shooting paper with PRB at fifty yards, I get a pretty nice clover-leaf with the Browning... which is to be expected. The Renegade will group three inches and the Greyhawk will usually group four to five inches... which is an OK group with what amounts to a pistol-length barrel. I have tried and can hit a gallon jug at 100 yards with the previously mentioned Renegade and Browning, but not the Greyhawk. I would like to think, though, that I would have the personal discipline to pass a hundred yard shot at a whitetail that was a hundred yards down range... not that people hunting in Wisconsin generally get a shot that long anyway.

You can also play with different lubes if you want to, but different powders and different charges will have more to do with accuracy than the lube you use. I generally stay away from petroleum-based lubes and use anything from T/C Bore Butter to cooking spray. I don't really notice any difference.

To be really good with a PRB, you should aspire to acquire a gun with a 1:66 twist. Once you have that, you can start playing with the other acoutrement. used in this field of endeavor. Whatever you do, consistency is the real key here; do absolutely everything the same way every time. Even if you accomplish your apparent goal of a perfect clover-leaf at 100 yards, the deer I kill will be just as dead as the one you kill.... and I will not have had to work so hard.

May the force be with you....

Thank you for your perspectives, it is excellent information! Curious, why do you have a TC Gray Hawk with a 12” barrel? Did you cut it down from the factory 24”? Why? I have a Gray Hawk with the 24” and find that quite handy. I’m a Side-lock guy but like the stainless Gray Hawk for hunting with its slightly better corrosion resistance for all day in the field. I use 245 gr. Ball-ets in it. Seems to work well.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

Thank you for your perspectives, it is excellent information! Curious, why do you have a TC Gray Hawk with a 12” barrel? Did you cut it down from the factory 24”? Why? I have a Gray Hawk with the 24” and find that quite handy. I’m a Side-lock guy but like the stainless Gray Hawk for hunting with its slightly better corrosion resistance for all day in the field. I use 245 gr. Ball-ets in it. Seems to work well.

That would be a medium-long story. It is a cut-down Greyhawk made from a gun that somebody butchered up with holes for scope mounting. I was developing a weapon for a character in a story I would eventually write and wanted to make sure it would work. This one has no ramrod, a longer-than-normal short starter serves as the ramrod and the cut-down stock has an ebony cap. It will accept New Englander barrels as well and has two of those.

My Greyhawk barrel sports a Remington rear sight assembly and a Williams ramp and front sight. The other two barrels have a primitive rear and bead front/no sight at all.

Basically, what I wanted was a handy short-barreled gun to deal with large predators up close and personal (in my bookverse, not in our reality). A .710 round ball dishes out a lot of hurt at conversational ranges. I made it because I wanted to be sure the concept was sound before I saddle my character Yellow Bird with it.

I do wish that somebody else would come up with stainless barrels. It does seem a natural for black-powder guns, but we tend to be traditional and machining stainless is troublesome and expensive.

 

[mkabe]

That would be a medium-long story. It is a cut-down Greyhawk made from a gun that somebody butchered up with holes for scope mounting. I was developing a weapon for a character in a story I would eventually write and wanted to make sure it would work. This one has no ramrod, a longer-than-normal short starter serves as the ramrod and the cut-down stock has an ebony cap. It will accept New Englander barrels as well and has two of those.

My Greyhawk barrel sports a Remington rear sight assembly and a Williams ramp and front sight. The other two barrels have a primitive rear and bead front/no sight at all.

Basically, what I wanted was a handy short-barreled gun to deal with large predators up close and personal (in my bookverse, not in our reality). A .710 round ball dishes out a lot of hurt at conversational ranges. I made it because I wanted to be sure the concept was sound before I saddle my character Yellow Bird with it.

I do wish that somebody else would come up with stainless barrels. It does seem a natural for black-powder guns, but we tend to be traditional and machining stainless is troublesome and expensive.

Thanks for the response. When you get your story written let us know where we can go to get a copy to read.
No your right, stainless isn’t traditional and I much prefer browned or blued barrels on side-locks and flints with wood stocks, but the stainless make a lot of sense to me for black powder or subs. On a “working gun”.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

Thanks for the response. When you get your story written let us know where we can go to get a copy to read.
No your right, stainless isn’t traditional and I much prefer browned or blued barrels on side-locks and flints with wood stocks, but the stainless make a lot of sense to me for black powder or subs. On a “working gun”.

https://play.google.com/store/books/details/Dale_A_Raby_The_Wives_of_Jacob?id=JvmBAwAAQBAJ
This is the "prequel" to the story I made the gun for. Dunno if I will ever publish the second book as I have cancer and will be dying in a couple years more or less. Sucks to be me huh?

 

[mkabe]

https://play.google.com/store/books/details/Dale_A_Raby_The_Wives_of_Jacob?id=JvmBAwAAQBAJ
This is the "prequel" to the story I made the gun for. Dunno if I will ever publish the second book as I have cancer and will be dying in a couple years more or less. Sucks to be me huh?

Yes it sucks really big time to be sick and knowing you have limited time left, but I assure you someone’s much loved son was sacrificed to bring you great piece for eternity!
I have heart disease but all seems okay, no angina and good perfusion under exercise. Also had an aggressive prostate cancer but had it removed and now a year out a PSA of 0.00 so seem good. A couple of major compression fractures of my lumbar spine have reduced my height 2+ inches and cause near constant sciatica pain.
But I still have a wonderful life, unbelievable wife, great and successful kids, and even better great grandchildren. A little money in savings, what more could I ask for.

Consider: "One of the most difficult existential questions is why bad things happen to good people, especially if there’s a just, benevolent force at the helm of the universe.
Ultimately, Seneca argues, without adversity, it’s impossible to become strong, virtuous, and self-aware, and without the chance to develop strength, virtue, and self-knowledge, it’s impossible to be happy.
His answer, then, to why bad things happen to good people, is that what we consider bad, is “not bad save to him who endures it ill.”
For it is only in a world where we face crucibles of pain, that we can ever wear laurel wreaths of joy."
The post Sunday Firesides: Why Bad Things Happen to Good People (According to a Stoic)appeared first on The Art of Manliness.

I’ll pray for you and wish you the best, now and in eternity.

 

[bang]

My 50cal TC shot tight groups at 50 yds…but 50grs of powder was around 1100fps at the muzzle and gave me about 270 foot pounds of energy at 50 yds….
I think Thomson wanted all of us to use their proprietary “maxiball” bullets…cuz these chunks of lead hit with great authority atop 80 grs of powder at 100 yds and most landed towards the center of the paper plate….

but I was newbie fresh and hellbent on roundballs…

When I built my first TC Hawkens 45 it would put 8 of 10 in bull at 100 yards with. .440/.010 70 grains FFF.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

Yes it sucks really big time to be sick and knowing you have limited time left, but I assure you someone’s much loved son was sacrificed to bring you great piece for eternity!
I have heart disease but all seems okay, no angina and good perfusion under exercise. Also had an aggressive prostate cancer but had it removed and now a year out a PSA of 0.00 so seem good. A couple of major compression fractures of my lumbar spine have reduced my height 2+ inches and cause near constant sciatica pain.
But I still have a wonderful life, unbelievable wife, great and successful kids, and even better great grandchildren. A little money in savings, what more could I ask for.

Consider: "One of the most difficult existential questions is why bad things happen to good people, especially if there’s a just, benevolent force at the helm of the universe.
Ultimately, Seneca argues, without adversity, it’s impossible to become strong, virtuous, and self-aware, and without the chance to develop strength, virtue, and self-knowledge, it’s impossible to be happy.
His answer, then, to why bad things happen to good people, is that what we consider bad, is “not bad save to him who endures it ill.”
For it is only in a world where we face crucibles of pain, that we can ever wear laurel wreaths of joy."
The post Sunday Firesides: Why Bad Things Happen to Good People (According to a Stoic)appeared first on The Art of Manliness.

I’ll pray for you and wish you the best, now and in eternity.

Thanks. I'm not all that concerned really. There is no point in worrying about things you cannot change... the trick is to learn what can and can't be changed. Mortality is one of the latter category. I just take each day as it comes and try to get out and fire a shot or two each day.

My bookverse contains a barkeep named Josh. He has a couple of barmaids who are people you might have heard of, though they go by nomes-de-guerre. Josh is an... interesting character.

My hope is that I can get my print shop set up again and print a few copies of all my stories, but that may not happen. We'll just have to see.

Send me a PM with your address and I'll get you a copy of one of the short stories set in my bookverse that I did get printed up. It is called The Ganggster's Christmas. I think you'd like it.

 

[mkabe]

Thanks. I'm not all that concerned really. There is no point in worrying about things you cannot change... the trick is to learn what can and can't be changed. Mortality is one of the latter category. I just take each day as it comes and try to get out and fire a shot or two each day.

My bookverse contains a barkeep named Josh. He has a couple of barmaids who are people you might have heard of, though they go by nomes-de-guerre. Josh is an... interesting character.

My hope is that I can get my print shop set up again and print a few copies of all my stories, but that may not happen. We'll just have to see.

Send me a PM with your address and I'll get you a copy of one of the short stories set in my bookverse that I did get printed up. It is called The Ganggster's Christmas. I think you'd like it.

How can I get my PM(?) my physical or email address to you without giving that to the entire world here? I would love to get it !!!
Just not computer savvy enough to know what I need to do.
It’s probably safe enough to give my email address here on this site but let me know what you think.

 

[gunpa]

Here's a target I've kept from the early 90's. My 54 T/C New Englander liked round ball just fine but as the target shows it also liked the T/C 360 maxi hunter. Fifth shot at 100 yrs landed at the top of the group. First shot on cold, clean barrel is the flyer.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

Click the upper right corner with the envelope. At the bottom of the window that opens up there is a link to "start new conversation", Click that and start a new conversation with my user name Dale Allen Raby. This opens a private thread that only you and I can see. It gets used often here to exchange private information generally regarding sales of different kinds of merchandise.

 

[Carl.allen934]

I have been fighting with ball and patch in my 1:48 50 cal hawken, got to a good patch and lube but it does not shoot well at 100 yds. With a .495 ball and a .024 denim patch TOW mink oil lube at 48 yards I get a 2 1/2" grouping, but out at 100 it will spray in an 8" circle. Starting at 60 gr 3f all the way to 95 gr. raises the poi but still has a very good group at 48 but a big spread at 100. This patch n lube did the best at 48, but has no better pattern at 100. I wonder if a .490 would be better, has any one found an improvement with the smaller ball. (my bore is .500 .517 in the lands by slugging the bbl.
coupe

Go down in size on the ball to a 490 and a 15 th patch use white lithium grease for your lube bet it will shoot better and stay away from the coolaid or I mean bore butter every body thinks is so great.