round balls don't do well

[Mr. Flintlock]

Reading comprehension not your strong point I see. Have somebody read and explain the meaning to you.

"The twist of the rifling is usually fast, faster than what we use for batched round balls, usually between 1 turn in 30 to 40 inches."

I was going to recommend that you read Ned Roberts' book, but I see that may be a waste of time.

Of course I did t realize I was dealing with a brain surgeon, I apologize. You should watch his video and listen carefully about what he says about twist in the first few minutes of the video. Also he's only shooting 60 grains. So.e people are better visual learners.

 

[FishDFly]

Why is it now that most threads turn in to hate? Was not this way years ago. Seems some folks could use a dose or two of Midol.

 

[Frontier's]

Why is it now that eveyy thread turns in to hate? Was not this way years ago. Seems some folks could use a dose of Midol.

More comical than when mr.flintlock was arguing with the Shenandoah lube guy about the % of alcohol they use in their lube or how much quantity they buy it in.

Correction... Lehigh valley lube

 

[Mr. Flintlock]

Of course I did t realize I was dealing with a brain surgeon, I apologize. You should watch his video and listen carefully about what he says about twist in the first few minutes of the video. Also he's only shooting 60 grains. So.e people are better visual learners.

I believe what Robert's wrote about roundball twist in his book referred to old time rifle makers who typically made small caliber rifles and fast twist ie: 1:48 works fine in small calibers. Most of what old Ned was shooting was long bearing surface bullets, pickett bullets, swaged, and sugar loaf. Apparently you didn't understand that. Maybe you should order the video.

 

[Mr. Flintlock]

More comical than when mr.flintlock was arguing with the Shenandoah lube guy about the % of alcohol they use in their lube or how much quantity they buy it in.

That conversation never took place. I don't know who the Shenandoah Valley guy is.

 

[Mr. Flintlock]

I don't hate anyone. I replied to a post thinking I was trying to help the original poster. Then I get attacked by all the self proclaimed subject experts telling me how wrong I am. I didn't start this discussion but I hope I finished it.

 

[FishDFly]

Seems like a good time to kill it to me.

 

[Frontier's]

That conversation never took place. I don't know who the Shenandoah Valley guy is.

It's easy to forget those things. But considering it took place on my forum I used to own, I personally deleted the posts and ended up having to ban the other fellow.

 

[LME]

Or maybe your rifle or skills are lacking?

My traditions st.louis hawken 54 prints soft ball sized groups at 200 yards with 90gr 3fg. Not too shabby with open sights.

Even the original 50cal barrel did awesome with 110fr 2fg.

I can see a bullet using that much powder but like I said my experience with round balls is as I stated. My shooting skills do lack a lot to be desired but I have shot my .54 rifle using balls in one oval hole at 100 yards . This is only three shots . I am sure that if I had shot more the group would probably open up some? I do consider that fairly good shooting? I do know that someone that shoots better than this wouldn't consider it only fair shooting? LOL!

 

[longcruise]

There's a reason Thompson Center never sold TC roundballs for the Hawkens. They only sold Tc maxi balls for the Hawken rifles.

When I got my very first ml in the fall of '74 I also spent a few extra bucks and bought the "starter kit". The kit was a powder measure (the old slide type 50 to 120 grains), a short starter and a 490 ball mold. So, what they were selling was a round ball. The owners manual (still have it) has explicit load data for RB.

They also had the data for a maxi ball so naturally I had to have one of those. I don't know what their marketing strategies were. But if you think about it there were and still are round balls being produced but I'm not sure if anybody is selling maxis since TC was bought out. Maybe they thought selling maxi balls was more profitable than selling round balls.

The conventional wisdom is that TC did 1:48 as a "compromise" in order to create a versatile rifle but I don't think they were doing so at all. OTOH, when that conventional wisdom started popping up, why wouldn't they embrace a ready made already proven marketing plus? I say that not knowing if TC ever actually claimed it.

There are more compelling possibilities for the choice of 1:48. For example, didn't the Hawken Brothers rifle 1:48 all through their careers? The other thing is it's claimed that shallow rifling was part of their decision to have "compromise" rifling. TC button rifled their barrels. I think there are limits to how deep button rifling can be made. Maybe some of our machinist members can comment on that?

Getting back to the Hawken brothers, one of them worked in the armory at Harper's Ferry and undoubtedly was very familiar with the Harper's Ferry rifle. That rifle had a 1:56 twist. Yet he apparently had no problem producing rifles with a 1:48 twist when he moved west to join his brother.

I can only remark on my own personal experience and first hand observations of other shooters. That is that 1:48 can shoot just fine and certainly well enough to shoot paper and game.

 

[COTNTOP]

My first ML rifle was a TC Hawken 45. Do not remember how accurate it was because rifle was stolen. I do remember shooting 110gr for the load. It kicked so bad that I never replaced the rifle until several yrs ago. All this happened before the internet and no info was available here at the time. Had to rely on my cousin for loading because he was the only BP addict at the time. Old Cuz ruined a bunch of shooters real quick with those hot loads around here. I remember an old friend wanted some meat and I went on a road behind his house, I shot the deer behind the shoulder and hit him in the head. He thought I was an expert shot and I never told him otherwise.

 

[Pierre009]

Other factors must be involved...my 50 cal with 1:48 does great with 100 & 110 grains. Hole within a hole at 75 yards...I'll have to try a lesser load & see...

 

[Grenadier1758]

@longcruise is quite correct. The T/C compromise is the depth of the grooves, not the rate of twist. The Hawken Brothers and most other barrel makers in the early to mid 1800's only used the 1 in 48" twist based on that was the only rifling machine in their shop. Those rifles were very effective in their large calibers (and their small calibers) with round ball. Button rifling as used by T/C and others is an inexpensive manufacturing method to add rifling to the barrel. It only takes one pass with the button to cut all the grooves. But to do the rifling in one pass, the grooves must be shallow. Shallow grooves and patched round balls are not compatible unless very tightly patched. It is the T/C literature that referred to the 1 in 48" twist as a compromise. T/C was not about to imply it was their manufacturing technique that led to poor performance with round balls. They did sell round balls for their rifles. I have a T/C round ball mold. After all, in our modern age it is common knowledge that a conical bullet is superior to a round ball in effective hunting performance. a hundred years ago it was common knowledge that a round ball used by a hunter using skilled hunting techniques was very effective.

What I have seen is that large charges in a shallow grooved rifled barrel of whatever twist using a loose-fitting ball and thin patch will have large groups with large charges of powder. Whether is the skipping the lands or gas blow by, the groups become large.

 

[Firewalker]

I’m gonna go out on a limb here and maybe make a few people upset. Many people that tell you that they shoot 1 inch groups at 100 yards with a muzzleloader are lying. I’ve been shooting matches for 20+ years. Even the best shooters have a great day when all holes are in the black on an NRA target at 100 yards. I can nail 1 inch or maybe clover leaf rounds at 50 most days but I’ve never gotten better than a four inch group at 100 yards. Some matches I’ll have a phenomenal 100 yard target. The next match I’ll be all over the place. That’s with numerous rifles. Wind, sun, humidity, rain. All those affect the outcome. Sometimes we assume our loads just aren’t right and keep experimenting to no success. Sometimes it’s just that we aren’t that good, our sights aren’t up to par, the sun is shining in the wrong direction and let us not forget the wind. The range where I shoot matches is always windy. My eyes aren’t the best either using iron sights. Focus on getting better groups at 50 before you even consider shooting at 100. If your sights hinder you at 50 then they are gonna kill ya at 100. Keep practicing and working on those loads. Let a better shooter have a go with your rifle at 50 also. See what those results are. Sometimes it’s just not the rifle or the load. Sometimes we just have a bad day or aren’t as great of a shooter as those folks claiming scoped bolt action accuracy at 100 with an iron sighted muzzleloader. Do those phenomenal 10x 100 yard 1inch targets exist? Yes. Can they be duplicated on a regular basis? Probably not.

Best answer I've heard. I've been shooting 40 some years and have never seen anyone shoot 2 inch groups at 100. Of .course it could be the hundreds of people I've shot with over the years were all bad shots, thats possible. If you keep them in the black at 100 its a good shootin day.

 

[longcruise]

Best answer I've heard. I've been shooting 40 some years and have never seen anyone shoot 2 inch groups at 100. Of .course it could be the hundreds of people I've shot with over the years were all bad shots, thats possible. If you keep them in the black at 100 its a good shootin day.

It's Murphys Law. If it can happen it will! It's a statistical certainty that if you shoot enough 3 shot groups at any distance, some extraordinary groups will show up. Even with a so so average shooter and gun it will happen. Doing it all day long is the proof of the shooter/rifle qualities.

I'm not here dissing anyone's claims. I d not judge anything or anyone without seeing their 20 or 25 shot group.

 

[Mike in FL]

I've been at it for 55+ years. A roundball is effective at 100 yards. Nothing other than velocity changes between 50 and 100 yards that wasn't happening between the muzzle and 50 yards. If a 2 inch group at 50 is bigger than 4 inches at 100, it is the rifle man's fault, i.e. his inability to hold to d and hold center with iron sights. Get very good sights, even peeps.

 

[Relic shooter]

I have been fighting with ball and patch in my 1:48 50 cal hawken, got to a good patch and lube but it does not shoot well at 100 yds. With a .495 ball and a .024 denim patch TOW mink oil lube at 48 yards I get a 2 1/2" grouping, but out at 100 it will spray in an 8" circle. Starting at 60 gr 3f all the way to 95 gr. raises the poi but still has a very good group at 48 but a big spread at 100. This patch n lube did the best at 48, but has no better pattern at 100. I wonder if a .490 would be better, has any one found an improvement with the smaller ball. (my bore is .500 .517 in the lands by slugging the bbl.
coupe

Hi Coupe,
Thanks for providing your measured barrel specs, thats two-thirds of overcoming the accuracy battle unless you have a barrel with a bulge in it..

It's my opinion that using a .024 thick 'denim' patch with a .495 ball is deforming the ball & is responsible for opening-up your groups.
That combo must be a struggle to get started.

You will obtain excellent accuracy with your 1:48 twist barrel with the .495 ball with a .010 -.015 thick lubed cotton patch with a tight weave pattern.
*If your using store-bought patches & have a 1" micrometer on hand start with a patch that reads .010 thick when compressed.
Consider a starting load of 65 grains of 3F @ 50 & 100 yds. & use consistent pressures to seat each load.
I think you will be pleased with your group results.
Using pillow ticking material with the highest density weave is always the best option to prevent patch shredding & inconsistent velocities..
Patch Packing TIP;
Once you develop your ideal patch material & thickness..
Take a stack of 50 or so patches & run a sewing needle with nylon thread through center of the stack & tie a double-knot at the bottom & tie to the strap of your shooting bag for fast & easy loading at the range & while hunting.
The double-knot allows easy removal & prevents patches from falling off.
Happy ML trails,
Relic shooter

 

[Twisted_1in66]

You know, many years ago (early 2000's) we went through this 1:48 is too fast for round balls and there was a fellow who spoke right up, said it wasn't true, and he backed it up with target shots. He was a big proponent of the Thompson's version of the Hawken, which came with a 1:48. The final result from the pages and pages of discussion about it was that you could get excellent accuracy out of it if you worked up the right load. Of course, the right load tended to vary from barrel to barrel, but enough folks worked up the load to prove it could be done.

The 1:48 twist was particularly well suited to shooting conicals over a wide range of loads. My first Muzzleloader was/is (still have it) a Traditions Pennsylvania Longrifle with a 1:66 twist. Got it in about 2004 and joined the forum not long after. Hence my screen name until they changed the forum was Twisted_1in66. The Early Lancaster rifle I use now has a 1in 55 twist with its swamped barrel. The Traditions shoots most accurately with a 95gr. load of BP and my Early Lancaster shoots best with 80gr. I do not attempt to shoot conicals with either of them. I like the patched round ball and that is what those slower twist barrels do best.

 

[Kmcmichael]

I've been at it for 55+ years. A roundball is effective at 100 yards. Nothing other than velocity changes between 50 and 100 yards that wasn't happening between the muzzle and 50 yards. If a 2 inch group at 50 is bigger than 4 inches at 100, it is the rifle man's fault, i.e. his inability to hold to d and hold center with iron sights. Get very good sights, even peeps.

I have been shooting a round ball for much less time. I do not understand. I think the wind affects round ball much more at longer yardage. I shoot more 1.5” groups at 75 meters than I do 3” groups at 100 meters. I believe the round ball is affected more by wind as it slows In velocity, especially when it goes transonic.

I do agree that many of us, especially those of us with older eyes would benefit from a peep sight.

 

[Relic shooter]

Will find lots of opinions on most any subject on forums.
I certainly do agree with Kmcmichael on sights & eyesight deficiencies. Many sights on repros are ideal for short range hunting but way too coarse for shooting tight groups on targets at 100yds & especially if your eyes are not the best.

During my 60+ years of owning & operating M/L store fronts & even more years of hunting & competing it was great fun testing almost all brands of factory mfg. repros that surfaced from the 60s & on.
Most customers starting out reserved purchases of more costly custom firearms with higher quality barrels & components until they became hard core .

During that period I principally collected, hunted & competed with original rifled English & European hunting & target rifles & pistols mfg during the 1700-1800s because the quality of steel & tight group accuracy obtained by their barrels & the deeper & faster rifling styles were tough to beat.
Most of the original & most accurate rifles & pistols I've shoot have close to one-turn in the length of their relatively short barrels.
Example; my orig. tack driving .70 cal. Jaeger has as I recall has .014 deep rifling with 7/8 of a turn in it's 29" long swamped barrel.
With it's fairly fine & forward set express sights & 80 grs. of 2F it has no problem providing excellent one shot kills on big game @ 200 yds.

When TC first came out with their version of the Hawken Rifle it was a big hit as they mimicked the 1in 48"rate of twist found in many original Hawken rifles.
However due to much shallower rifling depth of about 008 & less that is also found on many of today's modern factory produced MLs, these barrels require a slightly oversized RB dia. & thinner patch combo to shoot well & prevent having the ball skid & patch cutting especially with heavy powder charges..
As most vintage forum members will recall Thompson Center & lee Molds in the early days recognized this issue & came out with various bullet mold designs that worked very well in barrels with shallower depth rifling for hunters in states that allowed ML hunting with bullets.
All forum members are correct in that ML barrels with longer rates of twist & shallow depth rifling are less picky to get to shoot reasonably well.
Those of us who strive for top notch accuracy & the tightest groups are usually any firearm forum's trouble makers .

The makers of barrels for our Civil War our era mini-ball shooting rifles & carbines were sharp cookies.
They choose shallower depth rifling for shooting bare projectiles because the shallower depth rifling produced less fouling & more rapid loading & led the way to development of those un-mentionable cartridge firearms
Relic shooter