round balls don't do well

[Jayhawkdan]

I have been fighting with ball and patch in my 1:48 50 cal hawken, got to a good patch and lube but it does not shoot well at 100 yds. With a .495 ball and a .024 denim patch TOW mink oil lube at 48 yards I get a 2 1/2" grouping, but out at 100 it will spray in an 8" circle. Starting at 60 gr 3f all the way to 95 gr. raises the poi but still has a very good group at 48 but a big spread at 100. This patch n lube did the best at 48, but has no better pattern at 100. I wonder if a .490 would be better, has any one found an improvement with the smaller ball. (my bore is .500 .517 in the lands by slugging the bbl.
coupe

Hi coupe. A 2 1/2” group at 49 yards is not a “good group.” In fact it’s a pretty poor group! No point in shooting farther than that until you solve the problem.
What powder are you using? Try spit lube and try using a thinner patch. Also it’s quite possible you’ve developed a flinch. Ask another, more experienced BP shooter to shoot your gun and watch you shoot!
Commiserating with you because I been there and done that!!

 

[Kmcmichael]

one can film themselves shooting to critique your own technique.

 

[jd945043]

Try a .490 ball , w/.015 patch , lightly grease lubed, and 75 to 80 gr. FFFG. Most 1 in 48 " twist barrels have a narrow sweet spot in powder charge , whereas a 1 in 60" twist , likes 80 gr. FFFG. try it

You are right My Pennsylvania rifle is a tack driver at .490 and a tight patch with 75 3fg

 

[ETipp]

Will find lots of opinions on most any subject on forums.
I certainly do agree with Kmcmichael on sights & eyesight deficiencies. Many sights on repros are ideal for short range hunting but way too coarse for shooting tight groups on targets at 100yds & especially if your eyes are not the best.

During my 60+ years of owning & operating M/L store fronts & even more years of hunting & competing it was great fun testing almost all brands of factory mfg. repros that surfaced from the 60s & on.
Most customers starting out reserved purchases of more costly custom firearms with higher quality barrels & components until they became hard core .

During that period I principally collected, hunted & competed with original rifled English & European hunting & target rifles & pistols mfg during the 1700-1800s because the quality of steel & tight group accuracy obtained by their barrels & the deeper & faster rifling styles were tough to beat.
Most of the original & most accurate rifles & pistols I've shoot have close to one-turn in the length of their relatively short barrels.
Example; my orig. tack driving .70 cal. Jaeger has as I recall has .014 deep rifling with 7/8 of a turn in it's 29" long swamped barrel.
With it's fairly fine & forward set express sights & 80 grs. of 2F it has no problem providing excellent one shot kills on big game @ 200 yds.

When TC first came out with their version of the Hawken Rifle it was a big hit as they mimicked the 1in 48"rate of twist found in many original Hawken rifles.
However due to much shallower rifling depth of about 008 & less that is also found on many of today's modern factory produced MLs, these barrels require a slightly oversized RB dia. & thinner patch combo to shoot well & prevent having the ball skid & patch cutting especially with heavy powder charges..
As most vintage forum members will recall Thompson Center & lee Molds in the early days recognized this issue & came out with various bullet mold designs that worked very well in barrels with shallower depth rifling for hunters in states that allowed ML hunting with bullets.
All forum members are correct in that ML barrels with longer rates of twist & shallow depth rifling are less picky to get to shoot reasonably well.
Those of us who strive for top notch accuracy & the tightest groups are usually any firearm forum's trouble makers .

The makers of barrels for our Civil War our era mini-ball shooting rifles & carbines were sharp cookies.
They choose shallower depth rifling for shooting bare projectiles because the shallower depth rifling produced less fouling & more rapid loading & led the way to development of those un-mentionable cartridge firearms
Relic shooter

Post of the day right there^^^^^^^

 

[Bismarck]

I got a .50 that just won't shoot balls. Patches really do look good enough to shoot again. Tried tight patches loose patches 5 kinds of lube. 2f-3f from 50-100 grs. 4" groups at 50 are the best I've managed. It'll put that 360gr Lee Minnie in 1/2" at 50 yards and around an inch at 100..... Wish there was someone near here to play with it some and see if they could get it to shoot a ball. It's just a cheapy beater hunting rifle anyways but I would shoot it a lot more if it would shoot a ball decent.

I have the same experience with Minnies, now that is all I shoot in my .50 cal 1/48. I use either just crisco in the base or grease (beeswax/crisco) in the grooves (using a Pedersoli greaser) depending on temp.. regularly shoot 20 plus rounds without cleaning. Why bother with patched balls if you get good accuracy with easy loading Minnies.

 

[RUDY MR]

My first ML rifle was a TC Hawken 45. Do not remember how accurate it was because rifle was stolen. I do remember shooting 110gr for the load. It kicked so bad that I never replaced the rifle until several yrs ago. All this happened before the internet and no info was available here at the time. Had to rely on my cousin for loading because he was the only BP addict at the time. Old Cuz ruined a bunch of shooters real quick with those hot loads around here. I remember an old friend wanted some meat and I went on a road behind his house, I shot the deer behind the shoulder and hit him in the head. He thought I was an expert shot and I never told him otherwise.

Why so much powder 3 fffg 80 gr would have been just about right

 

[COTNTOP]

Why so much powder? Have to ask CUZ, he was the expert. Nobody else in the crowd had ever shot ML before.

 

[LME]

Will find lots of opinions on most any subject on forums.
I certainly do agree with Kmcmichael on sights & eyesight deficiencies. Many sights on repros are ideal for short range hunting but way too coarse for shooting tight groups on targets at 100yds & especially if your eyes are not the best.

During my 60+ years of owning & operating M/L store fronts & even more years of hunting & competing it was great fun testing almost all brands of factory mfg. repros that surfaced from the 60s & on.
Most customers starting out reserved purchases of more costly custom firearms with higher quality barrels & components until they became hard core .

During that period I principally collected, hunted & competed with original rifled English & European hunting & target rifles & pistols mfg during the 1700-1800s because the quality of steel & tight group accuracy obtained by their barrels & the deeper & faster rifling styles were tough to beat.
Most of the original & most accurate rifles & pistols I've shoot have close to one-turn in the length of their relatively short barrels.
Example; my orig. tack driving .70 cal. Jaeger has as I recall has .014 deep rifling with 7/8 of a turn in it's 29" long swamped barrel.
With it's fairly fine & forward set express sights & 80 grs. of 2F it has no problem providing excellent one shot kills on big game @ 200 yds.

When TC first came out with their version of the Hawken Rifle it was a big hit as they mimicked the 1in 48"rate of twist found in many original Hawken rifles.
However due to much shallower rifling depth of about 008 & less that is also found on many of today's modern factory produced MLs, these barrels require a slightly oversized RB dia. & thinner patch combo to shoot well & prevent having the ball skid & patch cutting especially with heavy powder charges..
As most vintage forum members will recall Thompson Center & lee Molds in the early days recognized this issue & came out with various bullet mold designs that worked very well in barrels with shallower depth rifling for hunters in states that allowed ML hunting with bullets.
All forum members are correct in that ML barrels with longer rates of twist & shallow depth rifling are less picky to get to shoot reasonably well.
Those of us who strive for top notch accuracy & the tightest groups are usually any firearm forum's trouble makers .

The makers of barrels for our Civil War our era mini-ball shooting rifles & carbines were sharp cookies.
They choose shallower depth rifling for shooting bare projectiles because the shallower depth rifling produced less fouling & more rapid loading & led the way to development of those un-mentionable cartridge firearms
Relic shooter

You have a lot of good information in your post. Thanks! There is no way I could study and learn everything there is on rifles due to how much there is, time it would take and most of all knowing where to start? One true statement of your is dead on,""Those of us that strive for top notch accuracy and the tightest groups are usually the trouble makers"" !

 

[Relic shooter]

You have a lot of good information in your post. Thanks! There is no way I could study and learn everything there is on rifles due to how much there is, time it would take and most of all knowing where to start? One true statement of your is dead on,""Those of us that strive for top notch accuracy and the tightest groups are usually the trouble makers"" !

Thanks for your kind words LME.
I think most vintage ML shooters on this forum want to see our historical sport grow.
Shortening the learning curve by sharing our experiences with those who are new is the best & most enjoyable way we can contribute.
Must admit that at 80 I can't help but envy 200+ year old firearms that I own that still remain in the same condition after all that shooting, while our carcasses don't age so well.
Can imagine all of their previous caretakers had the same thoughts
Relic shooter

 

[Col. Batguano]

Sometimes an over-powder filler like corn meal can help, as well as an over-powder wad. I have an express rifled 40 bore Purdey SxS that shoots belted balls and it won't shoot well without that recipe.

Are you following Dutch Schoultz' advice he has in his book? Sometimes it's something as simple as sprue location.

 

[coupe]

Well I reread every post, even though I’ve burned black powder for 39 years I still made the nubee error! I was changing to much to fast. The patches were to big and the lube changes were mingled with thickness changes, then powder charges and granulation changes mixed in didn’t help. Now I know over size patches don’t usually hurt but the lube was tallow, bees wax, mink oil mix. Sticky when warm but like glue in cold weather. Loading the ball the patch folded over the front of the ball then pushed tight on ramming home, one side of the patch would open the other sticks just long enough to drift the ball, Hence the all over pattern which stopped as soon as I went to a smaller patch. Now 75 grs. 3f, pillow tic .018, and a.495 ball will do 5 in a 2“ bull (if I do my part) oh TOW mink oil lube. I posted a range report March 25 should have posted here. I was out today and duplicated the march range day at 100 yrds bench.
THANKS GUYS some times we just need the right nudge to get there!
coupe

 

[OldSmoky1967]

Thanks for your kind words LME.
I think most vintage ML shooters on this forum want to see our historical sport grow.
Shortening the learning curve by sharing our experiences with those who are new is the best & most enjoyable way we can contribute.
Must admit that at 80 I can't help but envy 200+ year old firearms that I own that still remain in the same condition after all that shooting, while our carcasses don't age so well.
Can imagine all of their previous caretakers had the same thoughts
Relic shooter

Well said. I love shooting the old guns, too!

 

[Pierre009]

Well I reread every post, even though I’ve burned black powder for 39 years I still made the nubee error! I was changing to much to fast. The patches were to big and the lube changes were mingled with thickness changes, then powder charges and granulation changes mixed in didn’t help. Now I know over size patches don’t usually hurt but the lube was tallow, bees wax, mink oil mix. Sticky when warm but like glue in cold weather. Loading the ball the patch folded over the front of the ball then pushed tight on ramming home, one side of the patch would open the other sticks just long enough to drift the ball, Hence the all over pattern which stopped as soon as I went to a smaller patch. Now 75 grs. 3f, pillow tic .018, and a.495 ball will do 5 in a 2“ bull (if I do my part) oh TOW mink oil lube. I posted a range report March 25 should have posted here. I was out today and duplicated the march range day at 100 yrds bench.
THANKS GUYS some times we just need the right nudge to get there!
coupe

OK you guys have me interested...been using crisco & bees wax, mattress ticking & 495 balls...never had a problem but will try the TOW mink oil...thanks

 

[Walkabout]

Get a slower twist barrel or stick with conicals for hunting. 2 1/2" at 50 yards ain't too bad. Personally, I set my hunting range limit to 60 yards.

 

[ElkStalker]

Well I reread every post, even though I’ve burned black powder for 39 years I still made the nubee error! I was changing to much to fast. The patches were to big and the lube changes were mingled with thickness changes, then powder charges and granulation changes mixed in didn’t help. Now I know over size patches don’t usually hurt but the lube was tallow, bees wax, mink oil mix. Sticky when warm but like glue in cold weather. Loading the ball the patch folded over the front of the ball then pushed tight on ramming home, one side of the patch would open the other sticks just long enough to drift the ball, Hence the all over pattern which stopped as soon as I went to a smaller patch. Now 75 grs. 3f, pillow tic .018, and a.495 ball will do 5 in a 2“ bull (if I do my part) oh TOW mink oil lube. I posted a range report March 25 should have posted here. I was out today and duplicated the march range day at 100 yrds bench.
THANKS GUYS some times we just need the right nudge to get there!
coupe

Glad you got that ironed out. Mink oil is a fantastic lube all year long and it’s easy to apply to the patch. I watched my groups improve a lot when I switched to this lube.

 

[SgtMaj65]

Glad you got that ironed out. Mink oil is a fantastic lube all year long and it’s easy to apply to the patch. I watched my groups improve a lot when I switched to this lube.

Agree … mink oil is excellent. Had some quality Eastern Maine Shooting Supplies .015 linen patches I lubed with TOTW mink oil that had sat in a 35mm film canister for 5 years after I lost wife to cancer and hadn’t picked up a muzzleloader in that time. Shot this at range from bench last week PRB with 65 grains of 2f Goex I had left over and I’m happy, since the eyes aren’t what they used to be. Used my .50 GPR, which shoots way better than my abilities at the range.
Only shot at 25 yards to restart my muzzleloading journey once again and will go back to 50 yards as I sight in new peep and globe sights on my .50 Renegade. Love reading posts on this forum. Always learn something useful and like seeing different opinions. A very wise old college professor from my very small hometown once told me that his mom told him to “Always listen to what the other guy has to say, because he may just be right.”

 

[M. De Land]

I have been fighting with ball and patch in my 1:48 50 cal hawken, got to a good patch and lube but it does not shoot well at 100 yds. With a .495 ball and a .024 denim patch TOW mink oil lube at 48 yards I get a 2 1/2" grouping, but out at 100 it will spray in an 8" circle. Starting at 60 gr 3f all the way to 95 gr. raises the poi but still has a very good group at 48 but a big spread at 100. This patch n lube did the best at 48, but has no better pattern at 100. I wonder if a .490 would be better, has any one found an improvement with the smaller ball. (my bore is .500 .517 in the lands by slugging the bbl.
coupe

It might need a re-crown job to make it perk up. The patch seems overly thick in my opinion. What do the shot patches look like? If they are torn or have holes in them than the crown may need attention or you may need to go down in patch thickness to say .018 or so. I have had good success with tight weave cotton (about .018) shirt felt I cut from my worn out work shirts.

 

[aussie pete]

Agree … mink oil is excellent. Had some quality Eastern Maine Shooting Supplies .015 linen patches I lubed with TOTW mink oil that had sat in a 35mm film canister for 5 years after I lost wife to cancer and hadn’t picked up a muzzleloader in that time. Shot this at range from bench last week PRB with 65 grains of 2f Goex I had left over and I’m happy, since the eyes aren’t what they used to be. Used my .50 GPR, which shoots way better than my abilities at the range.
Only shot at 25 yards to restart my muzzleloading journey once again and will go back to 50 yards as I sight in new peep and globe sights on my .50 Renegade. Love reading posts on this forum. Always learn something useful and like seeing different opinions. A very wise old college professor from my very small hometown once told me that his mom told him to “Always listen to what the other guy has to say, because he may just be right.”

Nice shooting, SgtMaj65! Good to see you are making smoke again. You got those sights lined up right .
Kindest regards, Pete.

 

[Relic shooter]

It might need a re-crown job to make it perk up. The patch seems overly thick in my opinion. What do the shot patches look like? If they are torn or have holes in them than the crown may need attention or you may need to go down in patch thickness to say .018 or so. I have had good success with tight weave cotton (about .018) shirt felt I cut from my worn out work shirts.

I agree with M. De Land,
Could be that the much thicker patches your using is deforming the RB, try using thinner lubed pillow ticking patches.
With a .500 bore .012 thick patches should be a good combo with about 70 gr. of 2 or 3Fwith your shallower depth rifling & 1-48 twist rifling.
Some of the early T/C rifles had Sharon barrels with a little deeper rifling.

If thinner patches doesn't work I would follow M. De. Land's advice & re-crown the muzzle.
Another thought is has a prior owner worn rifling at the muzzle off-center with a fiberglass ramrod, they were highly abrasive.
Some sellers were peddling them a few years back & egged-out rifling on many muzzles to extent that the barrels needed shortened an inch or so to restore accuracy.
Relic shooter

 

[Sun City]

All my rifles (50 54 58 calibers) have 1-72" ROT and all shoot extremely well using 100 grains 2F powder with .020 pillow ticking and Canola oil lube or just a plain spit patch. This is true with both flintlock and a couple caplock rifles I have. I wouldn't waste my time trying to shoot conicals unless I had a ROT commensurate with the projectile being used.