Roundball Ballistics

[Enfield1]

Hello fellow shooters. I am sure that you have read as I have that patched roundballs, regardless of caliber, bleed energy quickly and should not be used to take deer-sized game beyond 50 to 75 yards. That sounds fair to me, but we also read stories about spectacular shots in history such as the one made by Timothy Murphy on General Frazer at the Second Battle of Saratoga. Sounds kind of contradictory, doesn't it? Your thoughts.

 

[roundball]

I don't know about the shot at Saratoga you referred to but I have a different view about the pereformance capabilities of PRB's....in particular, I believe there's a power factor associated with the large frontal area of a ball that does not necessarily get represented in the typical "energy data" on ballistics charts that are set up for centerfire cartridges.

Using .50/.54cal balls, full power hunting loads (which I use) and a suitable rest for a standing heart/lung shot I wouldn't hesitate to kill a deer at 100yds...and 125yds with a .58cal ball.

IMO, the balls will do the job...but the questions really are:
1) Is the hunter using a max/near max powder charge;
2) Can the hunter put it in the boiler room at distance;

 

There is a difference between 'killing' and cleanly/humanely harvesting game--if only in degree. A rifle/musket ball will surely inflict damage on a human at long range--should the shooter be so lucky as to hit his target. The deer may also die, but fall when and at what distance from where he was shot--the next day?--a half mile away? I have seen a deer shot through the heart at 50 paces with a .30-06 run 100 yds and jump a stone wall, then another 100 yds before falling. Humans have dropped like rocks from a .22 round (although, admittedly, crazed ones need "more killing", thus the police/FBI switch to bigger bore pistols). The short answer is that with open sights and the ballistic limitations of round balls and BP--especially with .40 to .50 rifles, big game should be shot at under 100yds. Short range because with open sights even good shooters need all the help they can get to place the shot well--and because vel and energy drop off quickly with BP/rd balls. In warfare "all is fair" as the saying goes, and if you can inflict damage or death at long range, go for it! Our humanity does not extend to other humans!!!![witness the newspapers every day]

 

[boar]

I have made two long shots over 100yrds with 54 Rb 80grs 2ff, Ball broke spine, didn't go nowhere. I go to fill tag as I don't eat horns and don't pass up too many shots if it is safe to shot. From my house to town,3Mi, there are 3 road kills right now,One will cost Ins. Co 2,600 to fix car. And how many people do they kill. Our kill this year was down from last year. So will be more deer than ever.State is talking about longer season.But we have heard this before. Dilly

 

[gerryherd]

Sounds kind of contradictory, doesn't it? Your thoughts.

Not really contradictory: That roundball loses velocity and hence energy relatively quickly is a given. The difference between hunting and warfare is that Tim Murphy probably wouldn't have been too upset if Frazer had died slowly and the meat went to waste, whereas hunting ethics require we attempt to make a clean, humane, kill.

 

[Bountyhunter]

At my place, deer hunting is like shopping for meat at Safeway, it isnt a problem finding it, it is selecting the best cut.

I get as many as 5 licenses. The first one is for the horns. The rest are for jerky.

I have made two 100 yard kills. They dropped in their tracks. I dont see a problem with a .530 ball at full power dropping a deer at 100 yards. The longer shots tend to contain the ball in the body and exhibit extreme terminal performance. The closer shots usually let the ball pass completely through, and I have had a couple that were shot close, run a-ways before they dropped, and I think it is because of the pass through which didnt give the terminal shock.

Just my 2 cents.

Bill

 

I suppose warfare could be considered a type of "hunting", but the desired results aren't the same. As one poster said, if you can hurt or kill your enemy at long range, go for it. I'd have to agree with that!

We also have to take into consideration that what we consider long range today was artillery range during the revolution. I remember reading accounts of Patrick Ferguson's demonstration with his rifle. The onlookers were amazed at his 200 yard accuracy. Barely one hundred years later at Creedmoor the Irish and the United States squared off at 1000 yards. Today there are 2000 meter matches with the 50 BMG and like rounds and military snipers routinely engage targets at 800-1000 yards.

I have no doubts the long range shots we read of in historical accounts are true. At least as accurate as their range estimation. I believe in the book "The Frontier Rifleman" there is an account of a British general and two aides scoping a field when they saw some riflemen slip into a firing position. The riflemen began firing on the British and they killed the horse of one of the aides. The British general wrote an account of the incident and stated that he knew the distance to be over either 300 or 400 yards. I can't recall which he said. Anyway, you can intentionally hit something a long way off with a rifle if you know the range, your load and the rifle. A little luck doesn't hurt either. I have no idea of the ballistics of a 50-54 cal. round ball at 400 yards, (for me it's a moot point), but I still wouldn't want to get hit with one. In warfare, go for it. In hunting, I keep my shots to 75 yards or under nowadays, mostly because my 53 year old eyes aren't as good as they used to be. I simply don't have the sight/target acquisition I did at 33. Back then I would take a 100 yard shot on game.....not now.

A good set of aperature sights will make a huge difference in how accurate a rifle is a longer ranges also. You can't hit what you can't see or get a sight picture on.

Vic

 

[mmahlock]

If one practices at a longer ranges, becomes profcient at hitting the target at these ranges and uses sufficent powder there should be no problem shooting deer or other game at longer ranges. As far as having enough hitting power at long range, Sergent Thomas Plunkett using a .62 cal Baker Rifle shot French General Colbert and a second French soldier riding to his aid at a range between 200 and 300 yds.

BTW, the 95th Regt. routinely shot at ranges up to 300 yds during training.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Hello fellow shooters. I am sure that you have read as I have that patched roundballs, regardless of caliber, bleed energy quickly and should not be used to take deer-sized game beyond 50 to 75 yards. That sounds fair to me, but we also read stories about spectacular shots in history such as the one made by Timothy Murphy on General Frazer at the Second Battle of Saratoga. Sounds kind of contradictory, doesn't it? Your thoughts.

If a deer paused in the clear at 80 yards from me when I'm sitting and waiting you can bet I'm working out a firing solution the instant I spot him. I have no qualms about an 80 yard shot with my .54, provided the other factors are favorable. The answer to slightly longer range has always been slightly larger balls with round shot (right on up to the Napoleonic and Parrot cannon).

As mentioned earlier, no one cares if a general crawls off only to die later. Also, the "kill" zone on a human is vertical and about 36", groin to forehead. A deer is horizontal and maybe 14" spine to brisket. Makes range estimation less critical.

 

[nchawkeye]

All have made good points...I also might add:
1)Ignorance and 2)Greed

A few years back I was at a seminar on the Revolution the speaker was a well known history professor and was also peddeling his book on the Revolution...We got to talking after the speach and he mentioned both Timothy Murphy's shot (300 yards,Fraser was gut shot,he died the next day) and the account mentioned above, where Banester Tarlton and Gen Hanger were shot upon...(at 400 yards) When I mentioned that I shot longrifles in competition he asked if the stories about their accuracy was true...I told him that he would not want me to get a good ahot at him at 200 yards, but at 300 he might be safe...

I offered to meet him and let him shoot my flintlocks (as this college is in NC)...But he said he had never shot a gun...How can you write a history book for 1770s and know nothing about firearms, and their development is beyond me...

2)Greed...There are several writers in the hunting press that are on the payroll of firearm
manufacturers...I have read some of their articles
they make statements like "the responsible hunter" or "the savy hunter" and refer to all sidehammers as "bulky" "unreliable"...They would make you feel like you are a criminal to even think about hunting deer with anything but what they are peddling...The inlines were developed because some hunters were too lazy or ignorant to learn how to properly use them...So now we have "hunters" that could care less about the historical side of muzzleloading...Thats why most of us got into this thing so long ago...Its also that bunch that lobbied to have the muzzleloader seasons in the first place...

As others have mentioned..I too have killed deer cleanly out to 100 yards...The first year the Longhunter Society Big Game Record Book was published, the record Grizzly was killed with a .54 patched ball over 120grs ff at 100 yards.
the ball was found lodged on the off side...

Don't underestimate the ball it will kill as far as you need to be shooting with open sights...

 

[JohnS]

I took a buck this past December in Nebraska with a .53 cal round ball and 70 gr. of FFFg. I figured it was about 150 yards as I had ranged some distances in advance. The buck was standing still and there was about a 5 mph crosswind. I held about a foot above his back and right behind the shoulder. He dropped like a ton of bricks. My elevation was good and the ball drifted and got him at the base of the neck- went clear through. When I ranged back to my blind it was 162 yards. I wouldnt reccommend these kind of shots as a matter of routine but I was pleased to make it. The problem with the long shots to me is the difficulty of using open sights at that distance. I only tried this one because of frustration after 5 days of chasing the silly things around. I missed a couple of easier shots on nicer bucks. Just a few notes to show that anything is possible and maybe we shouldnt limit ourselves by preconcieved notions.

 

An expert with his rifle can make very long shots on game. A lucky hunter can, too. The reason that BP ML game ranges are usually advised at "under 100 yds" is that most hunters are not so expert and luck cannot be counted on to humanely kill the animal. I have seen too many gut shot or leg shot, etc animals run off to die in some thicket, or to be killed later by some other predator, to recommend or encourage the average hunter to "go for it" on long shots. If a person feels that they are good enough with their rifle to take long shots (proven at the range with alot of practice that they know where to hold, and can estimate ranges in the field) then the BP ML properly loaded will do the trick. We all have heard the tales of making 200-300 yd shots on running deer--but could you do it 90% of the time? 75%? one in 10? Most hunters I know don't practice, don't shoot offhand enough and are not used to open sights. I whipped a bunch of them at a recent offhand ML shoot with my 61 yr old eyes--it wasn't even close--yet they brag about their deer shots! I don't know.....

 

[roundball]

An expert with his rifle can make very long shots on game. A lucky hunter can, too. The reason that BP ML game ranges are usually advised at "under 100 yds" is that most hunters are not so expert and luck cannot be counted on to humanely kill the animal. I have seen too many gut shot or leg shot, etc animals run off to die in some thicket, or to be killed later by some other predator, to recommend or encourage the average hunter to "go for it" on long shots. If a person feels that they are good enough with their rifle to take long shots (proven at the range with alot of practice that they know where to hold, and can estimate ranges in the field) then the BP ML properly loaded will do the trick. We all have heard the tales of making 200-300 yd shots on running deer--but could you do it 90% of the time? 75%? one in 10? Most hunters I know don't practice, don't shoot offhand enough and are not used to open sights. I whipped a bunch of them at a recent offhand ML shoot with my 61 yr old eyes--it wasn't even close--yet they brag about their deer shots! I don't know.....

All good points...and IMO, I think for the most part there may be a bit of "bragadociousness" in the claims of 200-300yd running shots...somebody somewhere may have 'thrown' a hail mary at a deer like that and lo & behold somehow managed to hit/kill it... :shake:...but I don't know anybody who can do that routinely.

Don't know how in the world anybody could even practice such a thing, particularly when a deer's running gait includes a lot of 'bounding', up and down movement, etc...I've shot a couple of deer that were simply walking and they were only 30-40yds away, but I don't even do that any more since I learned I could make them stop in their tracks just by making a short 'whistle' sound.

 

[Will Bison]

Some years back I was obligated to take a shot at a deer at an extreme range. My gun was a .54 with a PRB and the distance by GPS was 195 meters.

Much to my surprise the shot penetrated 16 inches and broke 5 ribs and the spine. The ball came to rest just under the skin on the off side.

The ball expanded to about .670 and lost about 50 grains weight. The spine was severed at T-5, T-6 as I recall and thus did not kill the deer but rendered it paralyzed. Very little blood in or around the wound channel.

A small PRB (the .54 is 220 grains) just ain't got a lot of energy at 200 yards.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Wind is a serious problem for round ball shooters. You said the ball drifted to hit in the base of the neck but where would it have hit if the wind had been from the other side? Lyman's manual shows for a .535 ball at 1800 fps a 5 mph wind, which is hardly any wind at all, would drift the ball 11 inches. At 300, the longest distance in their tables, 5mph will drift that ball 43 inches! That's in addition to the drop of 128". It's a rare day in these parts when the wind is only 5mph, seems almost eerily still. :grin: Oh yeah, energy at 300 is 194 ft.lb.

 

[Greenmtnboy]

I agree with CoyoteJoe,
Last fall I shot a Elk with a 50cal PRB using 100 grs of ffg goex. The ball pasted through the sholder blade, went through both lungs and lodged in the skin on the oppisite side at 100[url] yrds.Walkin[/url] dead.
Now your gonna' ask what was I doing aiming at the sholder with a roundball rifle on rest at 100 yrds. Well actually I was aiming well behind the sholder but with the stiff breeze my ball was drifted three to four inches foward.
I know!! it wasen't me or my rifle. Been at it to long. and you know when you got a perfect shot.
Yes I feel wind is more of an enemy at 100 yrds that ballistics, If!! you have the proper load.