Roundball penetration

[roundball]

That's an interesting approach...and you didn't mention caliber, each of which has a different ball weight and subsequent mass, energy, momentum, etc.

How do you make the ball stop just at the hide on the aft side when deer hunting, considering all the variables?

How do you determine the one and only single size of a powder charge that will predictably and consistently do that to a deer at:

20yds?
40yds?
60yds?
80yds?
100yds?
120yds?

What powder charge do you use that will produce those results on deer at all those different yardages?

And this would assume each deer is identical is size, weight, musculature, position angle, shot placement, etc.

 

[Maynerd62411]

I feel like I posted a topic on everybodies mind.
I never thought about longer distances passing through and shorter distances not passing through. Somehow it just doesn't seem right, but it happens that way. Last year I had complete pass through at 65 yards.
I 've always felt bigger is better. That's one of the reasons I use the .54 cal. That and it's not as common as the .50. I always liked to be different.
I guess just when you think you got it figured out, something else happens that makes you come in here and ask questions. Sure glad I'm part of it.
Thanks for all the replies.

 

[Stumpkiller]

That's an interesting approach...and you didn't mention caliber, each of which has a different ball weight and subsequent mass, energy, momentum, etc.

How do you make the ball stop just at the hide on the aft side when deer hunting, considering all the variables?

How do you determine the one and only single size of a powder charge that will predictably and consistently do that to a deer at:

20yds?
40yds?
60yds?
80yds?
100yds?
120yds?

What powder charge do you use that will produce those results on deer at all those different yardages?

And this would assume each deer is identical is size, weight, musculature, position angle, shot placement, etc.

Touché :haha:

I want a killing load at the maximum distance I might likely shoot at. That could be a hair over 100 yards. To guarantee that, I know I'll blow through deer at 20 yards, 40 yards, 50 yards. That's OK, because I'll still have a nice double hole and lungs that won't work well. I've never had a double lung hit go farther than 50 yards before it piled up, and that's ALWAYS been with a complete pass through so far. Conicals, 12 ga, slugs or round balls.

There is something called the "puncture effect" I believe, that was demonstrated by the military after WWI (amd even before PETA folks were vocally opposed to the dogs that died in testing this). It was found that a deep, round puncture wound disables as well as a wider cutting wound. Lungs work because the diaphram muscle creates a vacuum when it pulls down. With holes through both lungs, no vacuum is created. Death follows soon. IMHO it's better to pass through at low speed than dump all energy at low speed and leave a single hole. Faster bullets impart hydrostatic shock, and that's a whole nuther ball game.

 

[Slamfire]

Energy doesn't kill, the disruption of vital organs like the lungs, heart, aorta, liver, and spinal cord does. You only need enough velocity to allow the projectile to penetrate deeply enough to reach those vital areas. Look at the lowly arrow, it doesn't produce enough energy to come close to that generated by most firearms, but the game dies, and usually rather quickly. If the bullet passes through and "wastes" energy outside of the animal, what harm has been done? If it stops inside after doing its assigned job, what more would you ask of it?

 

[mglampson]

Is the flinter losing velocity due to gas escaping at the vent?
Is the extra 10" of barrel length having an effect?

I figure 5 to 10% for "vent loss" when comparing flint to persussion, all else being equal. the smaller the vent hole the less loss.

Barrel length adds significantly to m/l. One of the "Digests", I believe, has charts showing 2" increments from test barrels. A 28" can be 400 fps behind a 42" with the same load.

A tighter bore also increases pressure and gets you more oomph for a given charge. Is the GPR harder to load than your flinter?

10% loss from the vent on a ball that is traveling fairly slow to begin with could affect performance quite a bit.
I have always used a tight ball/patch combination to get best accuracy and both the GPR and flinter load very similar. The flinter might even have a slightly tighter bore. I know with a "modern" rifle, barrel length equates to higher volocity, but this has me abit puzzled.

 

[mglampson]

[/quote]
Lungs work because the diaphram muscle creates a vacuum when it pulls down. With holes through both lungs, no vacuum is created. Death follows soon. IMHO it's better to pass through at low speed than dump all energy at low speed and leave a single hole. Faster bullets impart hydrostatic shock, and that's a whole nuther ball game.[/quote]
I agree on this.
I was taught that an entrance AND an exit hole allows more blood out AND more air in, colapsing the lungs.

 

[Slowpoke]

That's an interesting approach...and you didn't mention caliber, each of which has a different ball weight and subsequent mass, energy, momentum, etc.

How do you make the ball stop just at the hide on the aft side when deer hunting, considering all the variables?

My goal is to have the ball in the subcutaneous layer of the skin.. not saying it always happens that way

I try to limit my shot to around 75y but I have take deer out to 100y when I had a good rest. I use a 54cal RB and use 75g of 2f. Deer aren't hard animals to kill. I started using 90g of 2f but the ball kept passing through the deer or pig, so I backed it off a bit. I would never shoot 100y with 75g, I would have to let that deer walk.

SP

 

[Berk]

Comparing an arrow to a bullet is like compareing apples to oranges. Arrows kill because they are sharp and hopefully cut major arteries and vains in vital organs for a quick kill. A bullet kills buy shock that destoys vital tissue. An arrow with a field point may be drivien through an animal and it may die but it may take days or weeks not my idea of humain.

Berk

 

[Dave K]

The performance of a 50cal. rd. ball I used on the deer last Sat. sure impressed me. 60-70yd. shot behind the shoulder. Ball went through to the opposite side and really made a bad bruise on the hide. The ball then turned and went up the neck for about 8-10". The recovered rd. ball started out as a .490 ball and now it is a flattened .700 +or-.010 piece of lead. Starting weight was 177gr. it now weighs 164 gr. Lungs are a total mass of jelly in the deer. The deer traveled about 50yds. I was shooting 70gr. of 2F Swiss.

 

[ronrryan]

The old time market hunters in the East had a saying: "Shoot 'em in the lungs and let 'em run!'. Basically, they were saying : let the deer bleed out internally, just as if they were bled in the abattoir. Allthat blood will run out from within nicely at dressing-out time. They were adept at following deer and the relatively short distance the deer would go, when lung shot, was no problem to them Merry Christmas to all, ron in Fla

 

[oomcurt]

It has been years and years since I hunted with a bow. There is a great deal of difference between a field point and a broadhead. Deer points/broadheads do a great deal of internal damage and even more so if the deer is moving. They don't quit cutting. If hit in the proper place no deer is going to live days...much less weeks. Shot placement is vital in archery as it is in any hunt. Heck, you can shoot a deer with a .375 H&H and if not in the right place can live for one long time. Probably even longer than if shot with a arrow in the same place.

 

[harryo]

I shoot PRB exclusively and I believe that a ball should never pass through the animal but expend all it's energy inside the the critter. My goal is to have the ball in the subcutaneous layer of the skin on the aft side of the animal. If your ball is passing through the animal, you are using to much powder. Not to say that it's wrong or anything, but merely unneeded.

I would agree that a ball going through a deer and stopping just under the hide on the far side has done pretty much all the damage it can do. An exit hole through the hide would be pretty inconsequential as far as contributing anything further to the kill.

However, an exit wound can certainly contribute to leaving a good blood trail, especially if the deer was shot from fairly close range and a high tree stand. If you have a high entrance wound, the much lower exit wound can leave more blood, more quickly, and make the deer easier to trail.

My goal is to have a complete pass through. You can't have too much penetration IMO. I have no problems, or worries, with using the extra powder it might take to get that pass through, as long as I can shoot it accurately. Like roundball, I am a firm believer in using stout loads for hunting.

 

[leadball]

The buck my kid shot had no exit hole. In fact, I shot a small doe last week and that was the first time i had an exit hole(at least one i could see) on any deer I shot with prb. But i have killed enough deer to convince me that the prb in the lungs will make the deer a statistic in the DNR end of the season deer kill tallies :grin:

 

[vermontfreedom]

I've killed 8 or 9 deer with PRBs, .50 and .54 calibers.

I've had 2 pass-throughs.

Caveats: 3 shots with the .50 were straight on (17, 22, and 42 yards) and all three fell over dead where I shot them. One with the .54 was strongly quartering toward and it was a bad (too far back) shot which ended up lodging in the guts. My two pass-throughs were a 35-yarder with the .50 and a 45-yarder with the .54. Both were liver/tail end of lung shots (no bone except one rib) and both deer went about 100 yards.

Blood trails on deer I have had to track range from copious to very skimpy.

 

[pennsyltucky]

i like heavy loads too. 100g 2f in my .62 for deer, and 110-120 2f or a bear. i figger if the ball stops inside the deer (unless it hits a couple shoulders) it probably wasnt going fast enuf to expand much. i want that ball to hit so hard it flattens and smashes like a freight train all the way through.

ive never had to track one i hit with the m/l. the only deer i had to track was my 2nd and i shot it with the .243 at 175 yards. hit once in the heart and once in the guts...... i was 13yrs old. if i hadnt taken the second shot i wouldnt have hit him in the gut. another reason to use a single shot

 

[freetrapper20]

Interesting reading all the replies. All my deer hunting over the past several years has been done with .54 cal flintlock and patched roundball. My usual load is 100g FFg (cause I still have a bunch of 2F to use up). I have used loads as low as 80g but never higher than 100g. My deer have been shot at various distances and without being very technical the results were:
At 80g 2F the roundball almost never passed completly through. Would usually be found just under the hide on the opposite side.
At 90g 2F sometimes the roundball would pass completely through, sometimes not.
At 100g most of the time it would pass completly through. Only on occasion was it stopped under the hide.
(Results surely effected by exactly what all was hit).
I usually make a double lung or heart shot. I have only had one deer drop in its tracks using a roundball. I've had them run as little as 8 steps and as long as 60. They covered less distance on double lung shots than heart shots. I like a complete pass thru shot cause I get a better blood trail. With all the reeds, swampy areas and in the dark I want all the blood drops I can get if they run a bit. Basically, thats my experiences using patched roundballs.

 

[Maynerd62411]

I've only had one deer that didn't drop where it was shot. I was using a shotgun, then. Where I hunt , now, Most of my shots are within 30 yards and I've been lucky to have good quarter shots.