Ruger Old Army Upgrade

[45D]

Also, I checked hand spring tension at both the bottom and top of the stroke in a couple of my revolvers and if there is any increase in tension I couldn't tell it by feel.

Well oddly enough, I put the same spring and pushrod setup in all the revolvers that get that service (97% of what comes in) except for Remies, they have a different deal. It works across the board and all revolvers have the same bolt tension . . . about 4 lbs . . . I'll stick with my training

Mike

 

[Smokerr]

If the bolt needs to unlock the cylinder earlier than it does, the hammer plunger (replaces the cam in Colt type actions) can be extended which means it will contact the bolt "leg" sooner thus unlocking the cyl sooner. Remove the plunger by removing the cross pin. Then you can file the same notch a little further back and reinstall. This will allow the plunger to extend further.

Mike

Mike:

Thank you again. Practical application and advice on how to do it. I would guess my currnet ROA would work well with that, it does not need much. It actually clears but toggles back a tad at times.

The one coming in, will have to see. Almost looks like a lot of cylinder spinning and not shooting, condition is really good outside of the drag marks. That may take some more doing per stronger spring.

Actually I was shocked at a $500 bid winning. People asking close to 1000 for others that are not as good overall. Its an FFL required transfer by the seller but that is easily done, though my FFL scratches their heads, huh. The 94 was unfired and got for $600 as it was an FFL requirement.

greg

 

[M. De Land]

Well, the hundred or so ROA's that I've set up that way DON'T have the issue so I've got to believe the engineers apparently knew the product better than you. Sorry you can't accept that Colt didn't set up their revolvers the way you do.

Mike

We're speaking past each other. I'm talking about the mechanical physics of how a hand operates and why it has no ability to brake the cylinder rotation inertia as it speeds up in its normal push stroke . Spring tension of the hand plays no part in braking the cylinder inertia but the bolt spring tension does. A rub line past bolt lift and drop that clears the notch cleanly and allows reset is not really a defect in how the revolver operates. With a dressed bolt dome it actually can produce a mechanical benefit especially when increased bolt spring tension is added.
Any revolver must of a necessity produce some amount of drag line for the bolt to access the stop notch. Walkers and Pattersons did not have lead in cuts into lock up and still function. Some where along the line we got the false notion that a revolver is out of time if the drag line is longer than the lead in cut which any high mileage original factory Colt will eventually demonstrate.
Lead cuts were a great improvement in bolt drop efficiency as they mechanically lowered the bolt earlier and facilitated more stop area, for bolt contact, against the back of the notch.

 

[Smokerr]

The point is a new or newer gun should not have drag marks from one notch to another.

So yea, its not unreasonable to use the lead in cut to the notch as a metric of good or at least acceptable timing (better a tad too soon than late).

The real point is if its dragging from the Notch on, then you can also have release issues which tweaks the gun each time.

I don't know where physics come into play. Simple mechanical ops. I long ago concluded that what works is reality and things like string theory are for the possessed.

 

[45D]

The point is a new or newer gun should not have drag marks from one notch to another.

So yea, its not unreasonable to use the lead in cut to the notch as a metric of good or at least acceptable timing (better a tad too soon than late).

The real point is if its dragging from the Notch on, then you can also have release issues which tweaks the gun each time.

I don't know where physics come into play. Simple mechanical ops. I long ago concluded that what works is reality and things like string theory are for the possessed.

Actually, "age" isn't a factor, mechanical wear or handling abuse is. If a Colt action set up as designed remains that way, it will never have a ring around the cylinder. That is why collectors use that as an indicator.

Ruger decided that coils and plungers were "better" so that was their contribution to the SA world. They were pretty much right except for what they chose to power the hand. It has proven to be a "weak" link in their action . . . which has lead to the phrase "Ruger run around" which describes having to go all the way around (working the action) to fire the one that didn't because of throw-by.
The "approach" (Colt parlance instead of "lead") is for the introduction of the bolt into the notch and covers the area for "bolt drop" to happen. "Bolt drop" is when the bolt "drops" off the cam which means the head of the bolt hits the cylinder . . . generally a minimum of 1 bolt width before the notch or midpoint of the SAA approach. Anything before the approach is "early timing".
To further Ruger's "ring", they decided that opening the loading gate should be what disengages the bolt to allow loading/unloading which prompts the user to manually index the cylinder to lockup. Therefore, rings on Rugers (and those with Ruger type actions) are common and accepted which leads others to think "all rings" are ok . . . but they aren't . . . on a Colt style action it indicates a problem.

Mike

 

[Smokerr]

Mike: Great summation and background. I am mostly a shooter.

Yea I did the mechanic thing but I was a recipe mechanic. I needed the book. Seldom did you find a manual that had a sequence of operation. Sometimes after market books gave good details and ideas. I re-did the valves on a 302 using such a book, screw the manifold gasket, use silicone seal.

Often Fans and such would have an electrical sequence of operation. Hugely valuable in sorting out a problem though one of the most complicated systems ever (Standby Generators paralleling to a common electrical bus, AKA the Dali ship hit) did not.

Many a happy hour tracing circuits and figuring out where it was unhappy. Dozens of pages of schematics. Sometimes the tech line could help (oh yea, those last 5 transfer swithces all have a common input, the only way you know which one is hurting is to go to that room 400 feet away and test them, great, how come the other 8 have their own input, ahhh above my pay level)

Anyway, when you combine what should be going on with experience as to how to make it happen you have the best outcome, what should happen and what does not always being the same and having to come up with a fix.

 

[oldschoolhunter55]

Mike: Great summation and background. I am mostly a shooter.

Yea I did the mechanic thing but I was a recipe mechanic. I needed the book. Seldom did you find a manual that had a sequence of operation. Sometimes after market books gave good details and ideas. I re-did the valves on a 302 using such a book, screw the manifold gasket, use silicone seal.

Often Fans and such would have an electrical sequence of operation. Hugely valuable in sorting out a problem though one of the most complicated systems ever (Standby Generators paralleling to a common electrical bus, AKA the Dali ship hit) did not.

Many a happy hour tracing circuits and figuring out where it was unhappy. Dozens of pages of schematics. Sometimes the tech line could help (oh yea, those last 5 transfer swithces all have a common input, the only way you know which one is hurting is to go to that room 400 feet away and test them, great, how come the other 8 have their own input, ahhh above my pay level)

Anyway, when you combine what should be going on with experience as to how to make it happen you have the best outcome, what should happen and what does not always being the same and having to come up with a fix.

Well said sir.

 

[Smokerr]

Thank you.

 

[Blackpowderart]

So, to make the bolt pop up later, one should take the pin out of the hammer and cut the groove a little longer to have it protrude further? My ruger and most I've seen photos of, the bolt pops up before the lead in groove.

 

[45D]

So, to make the bolt pop up later, one should take the pin out of the hammer and cut the groove a little longer to have it protrude further? My ruger and most I've seen photos of, the bolt pops up before the lead in groove.

Yes. The other factor is spring tension. If you lighten the hammer plunger spring too much the bolt spring will overpower it and the earlier the bolt drop will be. So it "can" be the fight between 2 spring tensions.
I drop the ROA bolts at the beginning of the approach.

Mike

 

[oldschoolhunter55]

Yes. The other factor is spring tension. If you lighten the hammer plunger spring too much the bolt spring will overpower it and the earlier the bolt drop will be. So it "can" be the fight between 2 spring tensions.
I drop the ROA bolts at the beginning of the approach.

Mike

i enjoy looking at what you write on here. thank you sir.

 

[M. De Land]

The point is a new or newer gun should not have drag marks from one notch to another.

So yea, its not unreasonable to use the lead in cut to the notch as a metric of good or at least acceptable timing (better a tad too soon than late).

The real point is if its dragging from the Notch on, then you can also have release issues which tweaks the gun each time.

I don't know where physics come into play. Simple mechanical ops. I long ago concluded that what works is reality and things like string theory are for the possessed.

True there should not be a bolt contact mark from notch to notch but then that's not from early bolt drop or what were discussing is it. We're ( at least I am) talking about early bolt drop before the lead cut after a reset, clean lift and notch clear traverse .
One cannot avoid physics when doing anything mechanical as it is the bedrock of all mechanics but you sure can miss why and how those mechanical operations function in relation to each other.

So, to make the bolt pop up later, one should take the pin out of the hammer and cut the groove a little longer to have it protrude further? My ruger and most I've seen photos of, the bolt pops up before the lead in groove.

Yup and do yah think Bill Ruger flubbed up on that Blackhawk characteristic? I think one of the most innovative and prolific gun designers since John Browning knew exactly what he was up to !

 

[Blackpowderart]

I doubt he flubbed up, just a business decision. Better too early than too late. It's a mass produced gun, it won't be perfect but that doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be. I'm willing to bet his personal gun was hand tuned.

My uberti 1862 pocket police falls right in the lead notch perfectly. Not a single beauty ring on it. Before I got my ROA I believed I was getting the best cap and ball revolver. I guess I was expecting too much based on others praise for it.

 

[M. De Land]

I doubt he flubbed up, just a business decision. Better too early than too late. It's a mass produced gun, it won't be perfect but that doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be. I'm willing to bet his personal gun was hand tuned.

My uberti 1862 pocket police falls right in the lead notch perfectly. Not a single beauty ring on it. Before I got my ROA I believed I was getting the best cap and ball revolver. I guess I was expecting too much based on others praise for it.

You were getting the best percussion gun ever made !

 

[45D]

True there should not be a bolt contact mark from notch to notch but then that's not from early bolt drop or what were discussing is it. We're ( at least I am) talking about early bolt drop before the lead cut after a reset, clean lift and notch clear traverse .
One cannot avoid physics when doing anything mechanical as it is the bedrock of all mechanics but you sure can miss why and how those mechanical operations function in relation to each other.

So at what point does a "new" revolver succumb to physics? If a new revolver works fine with a correct bolt drop, when does the need for early drop happen. All my revolvers still drop the bolt where it's supposed to.

Yup and do yah think Bill Ruger flubbed up on that Blackhawk characteristic? I think one of the most innovative and prolific gun designers since John Browning knew exactly what he was up to !

The original Ruger revolvers ( 3 screw actions) required the use of the half cock notch to load and unload . . . and just like the Colt, that's the only time the cylinder should be moved by hand ( hammer on half cock). Some folks will pull the hammer back "just enough" to free the cyl and turn it and THAT is how the "ooooopses" add up to marks on the cylinder. As long as the "action" is what moves the cylinder, there shouldn't be marks / rings on the cylinder. The 3 screw functions just like the Colt SA's . . . the difference being how moving parts move and as everybody knows, Ruger uses coils. THAT was a major improvement for the longevity of the action except for the hand (pawl) spring. It was anemic then and still is today ( including the "offshoots" FA's, BFR's). "Short stroking" the hammer will allow cylinder throw-by ( you can demonstrate it at will with a Ruger) because of it. By contrast, the Colt action does not unless the hand spring is cracked or broken ( which is the first thing to check on a Colt demonstrating throw-by). Because most folks handled the older BH's like a Colt, you'll see a higher percentage of them with "clean" cylinders compared to the NM BH's.

Later Ruger's with the 2 pin action and a transfer bar retained the same hand spring and to exacerbate the problem, as I pointed out before, the half cock notch was deleted and replaced by the loading gate which means you turn the cylinder to lockup . . . enter "the accepted beauty ring" ( weak hand spring or not).

As far as all this "how to set-up" goes, you can follow the "Factory setup" which is what most folks would prefer . . . or your "gunsmith" can do a "make it function" fix if they don't know the factory fix.
Point being, if fixed "as the factory would", any later attention would be same or straightforward. If it's a "make it function" fix, any later attention may involve having to figure out what "the other guy was thinking". For that reason, I think that's why Ruger and Glock replace all returned revolvers with factory parts. If you want to keep any "upgraded" parts or "fast draw" parts, better take them out before sending.

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

So at what point does a "new" revolver succumb to physics? If a new revolver works fine with a correct bolt drop, when does the need for early drop happen. All my revolvers still drop the bolt where it's supposed to.



The original Ruger revolvers ( 3 screw actions) required the use of the half cock notch to load and unload . . . and just like the Colt, that's the only time the cylinder should be moved by hand ( hammer on half cock). Some folks will pull the hammer back "just enough" to free the cyl and turn it and THAT is how the "ooooopses" add up to marks on the cylinder. As long as the "action" is what moves the cylinder, there shouldn't be marks / rings on the cylinder. The 3 screw functions just like the Colt SA's . . . the difference being how moving parts move and as everybody knows, Ruger uses coils. THAT was a major improvement for the longevity of the action except for the hand (pawl) spring. It was anemic then and still is today ( including the "offshoots" FA's, BFR's). "Short stroking" the hammer will allow cylinder throw-by ( you can demonstrate it at will with a Ruger) because of it. By contrast, the Colt action does not unless the hand spring is cracked or broken ( which is the first thing to check on a Colt demonstrating throw-by). Because most folks handled the older BH's like a Colt, you'll see a higher percentage of them with "clean" cylinders compared to the NM BH's.

Later Ruger's with the 2 pin action and a transfer bar retained the same hand spring and to exacerbate the problem, as I pointed out before, the half cock notch was deleted and replaced by the loading gate which means you turn the cylinder to lockup . . . enter "the accepted beauty ring" ( weak hand spring or not).

As far as all this "how to set-up" goes, you can follow the "Factory setup" which is what most folks would prefer . . . or your "gunsmith" can do a "make it function" fix if they don't know the factory fix.
Point being, if fixed "as the factory would", any later attention would be same or straightforward. If it's a "make it function" fix, any later attention may involve having to figure out what "the other guy was thinking". For that reason, I think that's why Ruger and Glock replace all returned revolvers with factory parts. If you want to keep any "upgraded" parts or "fast draw" parts, better take them out before sending.

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

Brownell's at one time and may still sells a hand kit that makes new model Ruger BH cylinders free wheel both directions if I remember correctly.

 

[M. De Land]

So at what point does a "new" revolver succumb to physics? If a new revolver works fine with a correct bolt drop, when does the need for early drop happen. All my revolvers still drop the bolt where it's supposed to.



The original Ruger revolvers ( 3 screw actions) required the use of the half cock notch to load and unload . . . and just like the Colt, that's the only time the cylinder should be moved by hand ( hammer on half cock). Some folks will pull the hammer back "just enough" to free the cyl and turn it and THAT is how the "ooooopses" add up to marks on the cylinder. As long as the "action" is what moves the cylinder, there shouldn't be marks / rings on the cylinder. The 3 screw functions just like the Colt SA's . . . the difference being how moving parts move and as everybody knows, Ruger uses coils. THAT was a major improvement for the longevity of the action except for the hand (pawl) spring. It was anemic then and still is today ( including the "offshoots" FA's, BFR's). "Short stroking" the hammer will allow cylinder throw-by ( you can demonstrate it at will with a Ruger) because of it. By contrast, the Colt action does not unless the hand spring is cracked or broken ( which is the first thing to check on a Colt demonstrating throw-by). Because most folks handled the older BH's like a Colt, you'll see a higher percentage of them with "clean" cylinders compared to the NM BH's.

Later Ruger's with the 2 pin action and a transfer bar retained the same hand spring and to exacerbate the problem, as I pointed out before, the half cock notch was deleted and replaced by the loading gate which means you turn the cylinder to lockup . . . enter "the accepted beauty ring" ( weak hand spring or not).

As far as all this "how to set-up" goes, you can follow the "Factory setup" which is what most folks would prefer . . . or your "gunsmith" can do a "make it function" fix if they don't know the factory fix.
Point being, if fixed "as the factory would", any later attention would be same or straightforward. If it's a "make it function" fix, any later attention may involve having to figure out what "the other guy was thinking". For that reason, I think that's why Ruger and Glock replace all returned revolvers with factory parts. If you want to keep any "upgraded" parts or "fast draw" parts, better take them out before sending.

Mike

Ine

So at what point does a "new" revolver succumb to physics? If a new revolver works fine with a correct bolt drop, when does the need for early drop happen. All my revolvers still drop the bolt where it's supposed to.



The original Ruger revolvers ( 3 screw actions) required the use of the half cock notch to load and unload . . . and just like the Colt, that's the only time the cylinder should be moved by hand ( hammer on half cock). Some folks will pull the hammer back "just enough" to free the cyl and turn it and THAT is how the "ooooopses" add up to marks on the cylinder. As long as the "action" is what moves the cylinder, there shouldn't be marks / rings on the cylinder. The 3 screw functions just like the Colt SA's . . . the difference being how moving parts move and as everybody knows, Ruger uses coils. THAT was a major improvement for the longevity of the action except for the hand (pawl) spring. It was anemic then and still is today ( including the "offshoots" FA's, BFR's). "Short stroking" the hammer will allow cylinder throw-by ( you can demonstrate it at will with a Ruger) because of it. By contrast, the Colt action does not unless the hand spring is cracked or broken ( which is the first thing to check on a Colt demonstrating throw-by). Because most folks handled the older BH's like a Colt, you'll see a higher percentage of them with "clean" cylinders compared to the NM BH's.

Later Ruger's with the 2 pin action and a transfer bar retained the same hand spring and to exacerbate the problem, as I pointed out before, the half cock notch was deleted and replaced by the loading gate which means you turn the cylinder to lockup . . . enter "the accepted beauty ring" ( weak hand spring or not).

As far as all this "how to set-up" goes, you can follow the "Factory setup" which is what most folks would prefer . . . or your "gunsmith" can do a "make it function" fix if they don't know the factory fix.
Point being, if fixed "as the factory would", any later attention would be same or straightforward. If it's a "make it function" fix, any later attention may involve having to figure out what "the other guy was thinking". For that reason, I think that's why Ruger and Glock replace all returned revolvers with factory parts. If you want to keep any "upgraded" parts or "fast draw" parts, better take them out before sending.

Mike

I don't believe there is a "need" for early bolt drop but am pointing out that a revolver is not out of time because it drops before the lead cut and that it actually can provide a benefit when the bolt dome is dressed as it should be anyway.
I'm quite sure Bill Ruger knew at least as much as any of us about single action function and designed the BH with the realization that early bolt drop with a clean reset and notch clear traverse was not an operational issue. Adjusting the bolt to drop only in the lead cut is another example of finding a solution in search of a problem in my opinion.

 

[M. De Land]

Ine

I don't believe there is a "need" for early bolt drop but am pointing out that a revolver is not out of time because it drops before the lead cut and that it actually can provide a benefit when the bolt dome is dressed as it should be anyway.
I'm quite sure Bill Ruger knew at least as much as any of us about single action function and designed the BH with the realization that early bolt drop with a clean reset and notch clear traverse was not an operational issue. Adjusting the bolt to drop only in the lead cut is another example of finding a solution in search of a problem in my opinion.

One more point I would opine about is that the Ruger design that got away from the Colt cam/bolt marriage and went to the pin/bolt relationship is more rugged and long wearing than the former.
When the Colt designs show pre lead cut, bolt drop tracks, that were not present on the new gun, the cam and/or bolt finger are wearing down but the Ruger is just as designed.

 

[Blackpowderart]

Some folks like a fitted suit and some just where something off the rack. I thought everyone agreed the fitted suit will always be better.