Russell Means interview

[Bearclaw]

Howdy Pilgrim!
I recommend to you the following book: "Captured by the Indians" 15 Firsthand accounts, 1750-1870.
Edited by Frederick Drimmer. Dover publications, Inc., New York (31 East 2nd Street, Mineola, New York 11501
This book was 1st published in 1961 under the title: Scalps and Tomahawks: Narratives of Indian Captivity. by Coward-McCann, Inc. New York.
The Dover publication was published in 1985 and is an unabridged and corrected republication of the 1961 version. There are several eye- witness accounts of stake burnings and torture. And to further blow your mind, some Indian cultures thought it was okay to cannibalize your enemies! Bearclaw (Wach yer top-knot!)

 

[zimmerstutzen]

The Indians probably learned it from the white. Check out an online book called the Martyr's book of Mirrors. In the 1630's the city of Berne Switzerland burned over 70 people at the stake on one day. Amsterdam burned as many in some months. On one occasion, the "authorities" discovered a Mennonite church service and ran all 30+ worshippers through with swords, Men women and children. There are several first hand accounts of the tortures administered by good Christians on other Christians.

And, there are only a few documented cases of cannibalism amongst North American peoples. Coastal Texas was one. Middle America & Mexico , yes it was quite ritualized.

Lets see, William Wallace was disemboweled in a public ceremony. Folks often had tongues cut out. Joan of Arc, burned, Folks beheaded, drawn and quartered, and my personal favorite, tieing each limb to a horse and pulling in all four directions. And lets see, the leader of the Anabaptists in Muenster, was castrated and then suffocated in public with his own genitalia being stuffed in his mouth. And an entire ship load of English puritans was ship wrecked in North Carolina. The Spaniard commander that discovered them there ordered them, as anti Catholics, all slaughtered, men women and children. Men and women often branded for small crimes. Eye's gouged out as punishment.

Indians were mild mannered by comparison. Enemy children frequently adopted, captives often permitted to work their way to be considered members of the tribe.

 

[vern faulkner]

Let us not forget the "Inquisition". A right nasty little party to be invited to. All that being said, I do believe that at one time or another, all cultures and societies had their nasty little "dark sides". Maybe it is a stepping stone or an evolutionary process to becoming what we call civilized. I don't know, just thinking. Maybe I should cut back some on my meds. Vern

 

[jbg]

The Indians probably learned it from the white. Check out an online book called the Martyr's book of Mirrors. In the 1630's the city of Berne Switzerland burned over 70 people at the stake on one day. Amsterdam burned as many in some months. On one occasion, the "authorities" discovered a Mennonite church service and ran all 30+ worshippers through with swords, Men women and children. There are several first hand accounts of the tortures administered by good Christians on other Christians.

And, there are only a few documented cases of cannibalism amongst North American peoples. Coastal Texas was one. Middle America & Mexico , yes it was quite ritualized.

Lets see, William Wallace was disemboweled in a public ceremony. Folks often had tongues cut out. Joan of Arc, burned, Folks beheaded, drawn and quartered, and my personal favorite, tieing each limb to a horse and pulling in all four directions. And lets see, the leader of the Anabaptists in Muenster, was castrated and then suffocated in public with his own genitalia being stuffed in his mouth. And an entire ship load of English puritans was ship wrecked in North Carolina. The Spaniard commander that discovered them there ordered them, as anti Catholics, all slaughtered, men women and children. Men and women often branded for small crimes. Eye's gouged out as punishment.

Indians were mild mannered by comparison. Enemy children frequently adopted, captives often permitted to work their way to be considered members of the tribe.

Samuel De Champlain wrote in his journals about watching Indian captives being tortured to death. There has long been, in our culture, the myth that the American Indians lived together in harmony, that there was little or no conflict, and North America was a true Garden of Eden. The reality was quite different. The word for stranger was synonymous for enemy in every Indian language I have researched. The Iroquois waged war on everybody, the Sioux were bitter enemies of the Crow, and the Comanches built an empire that violently ruled the Southern Plains for generations. I have read the the word Mohawk is synonymous with rattlesnake, so that ought to give one an idea of how popular they were to non-Federation members.

Every culture and race has a history of violence and cruelty. European, Asian, aboriginal American, any on the African Continent, all have done terrible things both to themselves and to any
one who was different. What surprises me is that, with all we have done to each other over the ages, is that the Human Race has flourised, let alone survive.

 

The Indians probably learned it from the white.

No matter what the "whites" were doing before they got to North America, the Indians were torturing and cannibalizing prior to the European arrival. That's a fact.

You are mistaken.

 

[jaegerboy]

Boy ,is this boakum.............you need to study some history,not indian apologist propaganda.

 

[Bearclaw]

I do not dispute any response given here. No doubt there is, (was), torture and brutality in just about every culture since the beginning of time.
The original question was: Did Indians never torture or burn enemies at the stake as Russell Means maintains? I merely supplied a reference to alleged first hand accounts. And I do not dispute the fact that whites participated in such atrocities as well. I do question the claim that whites taught the Indians how to torture and kill their enemies. Bearclaw

 

[Steve Boyleston]

I have called Russell Means about all of the bad guys on here, and now we are going to Scalp all of those opposed and burn them at the Stake, then have a Barbque, no need to change tradition, so before its to late you better side with Chingetchgok, we are not playing, we were told White Meat taste just like chicken- The Great Pinyone has spoken to the white eyes!

 

[Kevin Bywater]

The Indians probably learned it from the white. Check out an online book called the Martyr's book of Mirrors. In the 1630's the city of Berne Switzerland burned over 70 people at the stake on one day. Amsterdam burned as many in some months.

Tell me how many North American Indians were in Europe studying Torture 101 in the 17th century?
You should read the first hand accounts of the Europeans that made contact with the Indigenous peoples of this continent. Almost everyone of them describe how the captured enemies of the tribe were tortured, some times eaten ceremonially. Are you trying to tell us that the numerically inferior white culture was able to radically change the deeply held beliefs of the local native populace and they took up the practice of torture? What about torture in those nations that had minimal contact with whitey? Where did they learn it from.

As for eating the enemy? Read Alexander Henry, Antionne LaMothe du Cadillac, Joutel and other accounts of the Great Lakes nations. It was more common than you admit.

 

[John Wasmuth]

Yep, if it wernt for us lowly ndn folks causin all the problems fer white folks, white folks would never had a days worry since the begining of time :yakyak: . Roasted whiteies, yep tatse like chicken. :idunno:
Different nations did different things, not all nations ate people, not all nations tortured people. Some did, some didnt. Kinda like sayin all white people suck. Some do, some dont.

 

Yep, if it wernt for us lowly ndn folks causin all the problems fer white folks, white folks would never had a days worry since the begining of time :yakyak: .

Don't get your breechcloth in a bunch. Nobody is saying anything negative about "the Indians". People are just trying to set the record straight about the facts as they were.

 

[John Wasmuth]

Look wasi, much like saying "All white people are brilliant brain surgeons" would be a falsehood, saying "All ndns are cannibals and tortured people for fun and profit" is a falsehood. Some people practiced the eatin of people, some didnt. Some tortured prisoners, some just made slaves out of them or killed them out right. Making blanket statements like that just shows ignorance.
It seems like you have a real hatered for us lowley ndn folks. Aint the first time you've posted such things.

 

...saying "All ndns are cannibals and tortured people for fun and profit" is a falsehood.

I don't see where anyone said "all", when speaking about the Indians. Nor, did they say "all whites" either.

Notice in my post above I even said "In some cases". At least be accurate when criticizing.

You appear to be carrying some extra baggage that is beyond this particular discussion?

 

[JEB/Ms]

One was that Indians never burnt their enemies at the stake nor tortured them.

\
When Hernando DeSoto's Expedition vacationed in the sunny Southeast in the 1540's they were often the guests of honor at bar b ques as noted by all three of the chroniclers on the expedition. A lucky guest was tied to a willow frame called a barbacoa (sp?) and placed upon a roaring fire until the desired degree of doneness was obtained. Sometimes they were only slightly toasted and taken down to be used as slaves with their scars as a constant reminder of what COULD happen if they didn't act right.
This has nothing to do with the original question but: For their hospitality the Spanish presented their hosts with gifts of "white man's diseases" which almost completely decemated populations of Indians in certain areas. Also they would take the entire cache of food the village had stored for the winter which would lead to starvation.
If we heed the words about casting stones if you are without sin, I doubt any race would be piling up a bunch of rocks.

Just some thoughts,
JEB/Ms

 

[Shine]

I bit a guys nose in a bar fight am I cannibal now? :shocked2:

 

[Shine]

Good gawd man give it a rest.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Tell me how many North American Indians were in Europe studying Torture 101 in the 17th century?
You should read the first hand accounts of the Europeans that made contact with the Indigenous peoples of this continent

First of all they did have to go to Europe, the Europeans came here and set the example.

As for first hand accounts by Europeans. One of the earliest known accounts of white contact with the Susquehannocks described them as 7 ft tall giants. (Too much firewater methinks)

By the 1700 the Natives had been exposed to over one hundred years of the Europeans' "methods" of dealing with problems.

Of course Indians fought and killed before the white man came. Yes they tortured enemies. However, many souces indicate that scalping was a white invention introduced to the Indians. Putting a bounty on the death of other people both Indian and white, again, a white invention.

 

[Claude Mathis]

This has nothing to do with the original question but: For their hospitality the Spanish presented their hosts with gifts of "white man's diseases" which almost completely decemated populations of Indians in certain areas. Also they would take the entire cache of food the village had stored for the winter which would lead to starvation.
If we heed the words about casting stones if you are without sin, I doubt any race would be piling up a bunch of rocks.

You're right, that has nothing to do with the original topic.

We've had the, "who was more atrocious" discussions before. They serve no purpose and that's not what this is about.

 

Of course Indians fought and killed before the white man came. Yes they tortured enemies. However, many souces indicate that scalping was a white invention introduced to the Indians. Putting a bounty on the death of other people both Indian and white, again, a white invention.

The fact that the Europeans put a bounty on scalps has nothing to do with the fact that the Indians were scalping prior to European arrival. You liberal, history re-writers, just keep repeating the manure you've heard. Typical liberal-half-truths. :shake:

 

[Kevin Bywater]

However, many souces indicate that scalping was a white invention introduced to the Indians. Putting a bounty on the death of other people both Indian and white, again, a white invention.

:bull:

Scalping is a North American phenomenon, Europeans interacted with lots of other indigenous peoples around the world and yet whitey never introduced scalping to any other civilization. Why? Because it isn't a European invention.

By the 1700 the Natives had been exposed to over one hundred years of the Europeans' "methods" of dealing with problems.

This is why I said 17th century not 1700's
descriptions of torture were documented in the earliest days of Euro/NDN contact.

As for first hand accounts by Europeans. One of the earliest known accounts of white contact with the Susquehannocks described them as 7 ft tall giants

The exception does not prove the rule