Russell Means interview

[Claude Mathis]

FWIW...

Although the origin of scalping in the New World is unknown, it was a widespread practice among Native American groups during the historic period, and was assumed prior to WWII to have been present in pre-Columbian times as well (Catlin 1975; Friederici 1907; Reese 1940). This assumption was based primarily on the observations of early explorers who witnessed the practice firsthand, and on linguistic evidence for the early existence of specialized terms in certain Native American languages relating to the practice. These terms included specialized words for scalping, the scalp itself, the scalping victim, and so forth (Friederici 1907). Archaeological evidence for the scalping custom in prehistoric North America, however, did not enter the literature until the 1940's (Neumann 1940; Snow 1941,1942). This evidence was presented as either a characteristic lesion of the frontal and parietals indicating survival of a scalping event, or as a distinct pattern of cut marks in small, parallel clusters that encircled the calvarium and showed no evidence of remodelling. In the past decade, with the advent of more sophisticated dating techniques, osteological evidence of scalping in pre-Columbian North America has been rapidly increasing.

http://www.dickshovel.com/scalp.html

 

[zimmerstutzen]

As we well know, reports of nearly anything that occurred in the 19th century were wildly exaggerated. That practice started in the very early days of European exploration and continued up until perhaps 100 years ago. First hand accounts of travels were being published and sold in a big businesss to peddle to the Europeans who were hungry for "knowledge" of the new world. Tales of monsters and savagery sold such publications through sensationalism. There was a lucrative financial motive for such tales.

It is hard to say what is the truth. There are even conflicting reports about Simon Girty's actions, and whether he was the renegade monster, he was made out to be.

According to the French chronicle writer Flodoard of Reims, between 919 and 966, scalping was a common practice in warfare among the Visigoths, Anglo-Saxons and Germans.

Scalping is merely a lesser form of flaying, which was practiced in the 1300's in England and as late as 1700 in France, it was used as a form of execution. Remnants of human skin have been found on several ancient Church doors throughout England.

There is ample evidence that scalping and flaying were already known to the Europeans who came here.

I have an old book from the 1830's that references the punishment of gouging out an eye at a Courthouse in Virginia.

 

[Kevin Bywater]

As we well know, reports of nearly anything that occurred in the 19th century were wildly exaggerated.

And we have the scientific method of analyzing those claims as to their accuracy. We can also compare reports of others who were there. The English, Dutch, French and Spanish give accounts of torture and scalping in N. America by "some" tribes. Claude has provided archeological/pathological evidence that supports a pre european date for scalping.

I also find it intellectually dishonest to claim any first hand accounts I reference as being unreliable while offering your own first hand accounts as being trustworthy

 

[zimmerstutzen]

For instance the two survivors of the party that captured by Girty and his Indian allies, gave almost opposite accounts of Girty's involvement in the burning at the stake of captives. One claimed it was Girty's idea and instigation while the other testified that Girty tried to prevent it.

I have read archeologist reports about the cannabalistic clans along the Texas coast. Recovered human bones showing grooves and being smashed when the bodies were butchered and then the bones were burned.

I am not saying all of your first hand accounts are dishonest. Certainly some journals and chronicals were not intended for publication and there was less intent to "Wild West" the reader.

The accounts of anyone born after 1700 in North America, is certainly subject as to whether the actions reported were indigenous proclivities or behavior learned through European contact.

We do know that knowledge of White's technology and tools spread like widlfire among the tribes even before they came into contact with Europeans. Northern Plains Idians had a well established horse culture by the 1780's. Steel knives and iron pots found their way to the plains by trade. Before whites actually got there. Some Anthropologists believe that American Indians didn't even have bows and arrows until introduced by contact with the Norsemen, and then the technology spread all across the continent within a hundred years.

Is there evidence that scalping occurred before contact with the Norsemen?

 

Some Anthropologists believe that American Indians didn't even have bows and arrows until introduced by contact with the Norsemen, and then the technology spread all across the continent within a hundred years.

Is there evidence that scalping occurred before contact with the Norsemen?

You just convinced me to waste no more time on you, as you don't want the truth, you want liberal propaganda. Enjoy the fantasy. :shake:

 

[Kevin Bywater]

Is there evidence that scalping occurred before contact with the Norsemen?

yes there is, the Norsemen are thought to have reached the norther coast of Canada around 1000 A.D Archological evidence suggests that the practice of scalping predates this event.
The material culture of the Archaic people becomes more diverse over time with an array of stone and bone tools for a myriad of tasks. One must realize that for all the culture periods, we are missing a significant portion of the record; except in rare instances, gone are the perishable materials ”“ wood, fiber, feathers, hides, furs, and basketry. Housing evidence is restricted to a few postholes; many hearths and storage pits remain as mute evidence of residential sites. Analysis of human burials from the Middle and Late Archaic periods reveal an average life expectancy of 25 years. Apparently violence occurred perhaps related to groups vying to retain control over territory, as indicated by inflicted projectile points found embedded in bodies and trauma preserved in the skeletal evidence including evidence for scalping.
http://mcclungmuseum.utk.edu/research/renotes/rn-27txt.htm

To sum up. some North American tribes practiced scalping predating any European contact.

 

Is there evidence that scalping occurred before contact with the Norsemen?

yes there is, the Norsemen are thought to have reached the norther coast of Canada around 1000 A.D Archological evidence suggests that the practice of scalping predates this event.
The material culture of the Archaic people becomes more diverse over time with an array of stone and bone tools for a myriad of tasks. One must realize that for all the culture periods, we are missing a significant portion of the record; except in rare instances, gone are the perishable materials ”“ wood, fiber, feathers, hides, furs, and basketry. Housing evidence is restricted to a few postholes; many hearths and storage pits remain as mute evidence of residential sites. Analysis of human burials from the Middle and Late Archaic periods reveal an average life expectancy of 25 years. Apparently violence occurred perhaps related to groups vying to retain control over territory, as indicated by inflicted projectile points found embedded in bodies and trauma preserved in the skeletal evidence including evidence for scalping.
http://mcclungmuseum.utk.edu/research/renotes/rn-27txt.htm

To sum up. some North American tribes practiced scalping predating any European contact.

Don't waste your keystrokes. We're dealing with the Liberal, "Indian good, White Man bad", syndrome. Facts play no role in their agenda.

 

[R.M.]

That's OK, the Holocaust never happened either. I'm sure I read that on the internet, so it must be true. :surrender:

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Jack. You are aware that there is no evidence of bows and arrows among Eastern Woodland Indians until around 1100 to 1200 AD don't you. Before that it was spears or Atlatls. (30 years ago, I worked two years/seasons for a PA State Archeologist on digs in SE PA) I myself have seen Atlatl points in bone at burial sites.

If there was archeological evidence of scalping before 1000 AD, this is the first I have heard of it. New evidence is uncovered everyday. My apologies.

I knew that there had been some new major finds concerning Europeans in North America and that apparently it was far more widespread than most believed.

Heck, my daughter's high school history book still says that the first English women came to the new world in 1619. Yet we know that there were English women in Jamestown before 1609 and that an English woman gave birth to Virginia Dare in the 1500's at the Roanoke Island colony.

No one is trying to rewrite history. However, history does have to be rewritten when the scientific and historic evidence proves it wrong. Scientific evidence cited would prove the earlier views held by many of "no scalping" as wrong. I can accept that and make apologies.

 

[T.C.Albert]

http://texified.com/Pages/Interests/scalping.htm
(if its reliable...)

Scythians were scalping in440 BC...Goths and Visigoths were fond of taking them as well...

TCA

 

[tg]

"To sum up. some North American tribes practiced scalping predating any European contact."

so the evidence would suggest, but do not toss the logs of fact to quickly upon the fire as they burn slowly.

 

[J.D.]

Barbarity knows no bounds, regardless of race, technology, time period, or location.

Just for the record, many years ago, I read the journal of a trader who traveled up some of the larger East Coast rivers. The author gave a very good description of the NDN villages he saw.

Don't remember the name of the trader, or specific year, but is was about 1500 AD. This traders "home base" was one of the ships "coasting" up and down the coastline trading with whatever NDNz they happened to meet.

All of the villages described were surrounded by palisades with taller poles interspersed around the palisade with decapitated human heads, presumably enemy heads, impaled on them.

The author also describes tall poles with yardarms, similar to masts and spars of square rigged ships, festooned with the scalps of their enemies.

I seriously doubt that the NDNz mentioned in the journal entries had absorbed much in the way of customs and barbarity from the few, brief encounters with white traders, at that early time.

God bless

 

[tg]

"All of the villages described were surrounded by palisades with taller poles interspersed around the palisade with decapitated human heads, presumably enemy heads, impaled on them."

I do not think this was a reminant practice of the Norseman, just doesn't sound like Lief, my money would be on the Knights Templar, they were here as well in pre Colmbian times donchano :v