Sabots in deerhunter?

[wishihadgunrights]

Hello! I just bought my first flintlock it's a traditions deerhunter. Wondering if I can use sabots? Or just patched round balls? Thanks! I believe the barrel is 1:48 correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[tenngun]

I think sabots or specifically plastic ones are off the table on this forum.
To check your twist run a cleaning patch down your bore. Make a mark on your ramrod and slowly withdraw it. With just a cleaning patch if you withdraw too fast it can strip and not turn.
When you get to the muzzle note where your mark is at.
Then how long your barrel is.
1/48 will turn about 2/3 of the way in a 32” barrel a 24” will turn half way.
If you are 1/48 it’s slow for the pistol bullet shot in plastic savored round. You need a maxi, real, ball-et, or such to stabilize in that twist. A patched round ball shoots well at that twist.
However some guns have very shallow groves, so you need a tight fit and a charge that won’t strip the patch

 

[wishihadgunrights]

I think sabots or specifically plastic ones are off the table on this forum.
To check your twist run a cleaning patch down your bore. Make a mark on your ramrod and slowly withdraw it. With just a cleaning patch if you withdraw too fast it can strip and not turn.
When you get to the muzzle note where your mark is at.
Then how long your barrel is.
1/48 will turn about 2/3 of the way in a 32” barrel a 24” will turn half way.
If you are 1/48 it’s slow for the pistol bullet shot in plastic savored round. You need a maxi, real, ball-et, or such to stabilize in that twist. A patched round ball shoots well at that twist.
However some guns have very shallow groves, so you need a tight fit and a charge that won’t strip the patch

So what would be a good option for something more bullet like? Although patched balls are fine with me so it doesn't even really matter. When you say tight fit and a charge that won't strip the patch. What do you mean "strip the patch"? Thanks.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

Yeah, plastic sabots are unmentionable on this forum, but yeah, you can shoot 'em in that gun with that twist rate. You can also shoot conical bullets and probably get a better group with them. If you put too heavy a charge under a round ball with a relatively fast twist barrel, you can shred the patch. In that gun, I would not exceed fifty grains of powder. Some shoot as much as 70 grains. Beyond that, you won't get much for accuracy with a patched round ball and you need to go to a conical or unmentionable.

Others disagree and your mileage may vary.

 

[wishihadgunrights]

Yeah, plastic sabots are unmentionable on this forum, but yeah, you can shoot 'em in that gun with that twist rate. You can also shoot conical bullets and probably get a better group with them. If you put too heavy a charge under a round ball with a relatively fast twist barrel, you can shred the patch. In that gun, I would not exceed fifty grains of powder. Some shoot as much as 70 grains. Beyond that, you won't get much for accuracy with a patched round ball and you need to go to a conical or unmentionable.

Others disagree and your mileage may vary.

What speed would I get out of 50 grains?

 

[2 shots]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

What speed would I get out of 50 grains?

Depends upon the weight of the projectile, among other things. With a PRB, assuming .50 caliber, I would guess about 1200 feet per second muzzle velocity. That falls off rather quickly though, especially with a round ball. If you are using an unmentionable with a light bullet, you might get considerably more velocity out of it, and better ballistics depending upon just exactly what kind of bullet you are using. That said, you don't really get very good ballistics with a muzzleloader, no matter what load you use. Heavy conical bullets will get you better accuracy (usually) and better penetration, but less speed.

With cartridge rifles, speed kills.... just ask Mr. Weatherby, but with black powder, not so much. It's all about shot placement and penetration, which is primarily a function of bullet weight. You don't get anywhere near 30-06 rifle velocity... not even 30-30 speed. 2000 FPS would be really screamin' for a muzzleloader and if you could achieve it, the bullet would likely not hit anywhere near the target.

Most effective hunting loads top out around 1500 FPS, depending upon projectile weight, in .45- .54 caliber.

There is all kinds of data out there that different manufacturers have published about their products. I suggest you do some Googling and then sit down to read a book or two on the subject. No such thing as too much information on this subject.

 

[wishihadgunrights]

Depends upon the weight of the projectile, among other things. With a PRB, assuming .50 caliber, I would guess about 1200 feet per second muzzle velocity. That falls off rather quickly though, especially with a round ball. If you are using an unmentionable with a light bullet, you might get considerably more velocity out of it, and better ballistics depending upon just exactly what kind of bullet you are using. That said, you don't really get very good ballistics with a muzzleloader, no matter what load you use. Heavy conical bullets will get you better accuracy (usually) and better penetration, but less speed.

With cartridge rifles, speed kills.... just ask Mr. Weatherby, but with black powder, not so much. It's all about shot placement and penetration, which is primarily a function of bullet weight. You don't get anywhere near 30-06 rifle velocity... not even 30-30 speed. 2000 FPS would be really screamin' for a muzzleloader and if you could achieve it, the bullet would likely not hit anywhere near the target.

Most effective hunting loads top out around 1500 FPS, depending upon projectile weight, in .45- .54 caliber.

There is all kinds of data out there that different manufacturers have published about their products. I suggest you do some Googling and then sit down to read a book or two on the subject. No such thing as too much information on this subject.

Great thanks for the info!!! Really helpful man. I definitely will do some reading on the subject aswell.

 

[64Springer]

OP

The laziest rifle twist rate ever devised by man was the 1:48 twist. A compromise. An unholy coupling of fast and slow that doesn't spin any projectile exceptionally well.

I won't address plastic sabots here. But I will say petroleum based bullet cups work best with fast twist rates. 1:20, 1:28, etc.

They may give poor performance in your barrel.

 

[Bushfire]

OP

The laziest rifle twist rate ever devised by man was the 1:48 twist. A compromise. An unholy coupling of fast and slow that doesn't spin any projectile exceptionally well.

I won't address plastic sabots here. But I will say petroleum based bullet cups work best with fast twist rates. 1:20, 1:28, etc.

They may give poor performance in your barrel.

A common opinion, but one that Idaho Lewis debunked pretty well with hid videos. Sadly he doesn't use forums anymore but hitting a gong at 600 yards (or thereabouts) with both PRB and conical in a 1:48" dispelled a few myths. It's all about load development.

Having said that I do think you're better off either going slow for balls or fst for bullets.

 

[Bushfire]

The sister forum "modern muzzleloader" is the best place for sabot related questions. It seems silly I know but the two forums are separated by modern and traditional muzzleloaders and practices. Here it's the latter. It's a great forum over there and I spent a lot of time on it until I got into flintlocks.

Having said that, your twist rate is a good indicator of what you should try. Just reading online you have a 1:48. Sabots probably aren't the best option, they really do well in sub 1:30" bores. I'd try a conical such as Hornady Great Plains or No excuse, or try a patched round ball. The compromise with 1:48" generally seems to be that you can't run stout loads or the rifling isn't suitably engaged.

I can't give you firm advice, I own 1:24" guns that use sabots and 1:66" suited for balls. Never went down the 1:48" rabbit hole.

I'm sure you'll get something serviceable with persistence and good old trial and error.

 

[tenngun]

So what would be a good option for something more bullet like? Although patched balls are fine with me so it doesn't even really matter. When you say tight fit and a charge that won't strip the patch. What do you mean "strip the patch"? Thanks.

A patch holds the ball and fits in to the rifeling. If the powder charge gets excessive or tge ball weight is excessive the ball stays unmoving and the patch slips around it.
In big guns, like the four gage elephant guns the patch can just roll around since the ball is so massive. On guns with shallow rifeling there is not enough grip for high speeds and the patch just moves while the ball doesn’t. It strips like a bolt stripped out and can’t catch the threads of the but

 

[GBG]

You've already gotten the best advice and wisdom available. I'll just add one piece of info that would have helped me a lot when I assembled my first muzzleloader kit as a kid. I had no mentors, no books and the nearest decent library was a 100-mile drive (plus I had no driver's license at 12). For the first few years I learned by trial and error.

The best projectile for any given rate of twist is also highly dependent on caliber. My .40X42" 1 in 48" twist Green Mountain barrel shoots round balls very well, even when pushed to higher speeds. My .54 and .58 caliber barrels with a 1 in 48" twist shoot best with longer, heavier full-bore lead conicals.

As you read more about muzzleloaders (or any rifled gun) you will learn why larger diameter balls and bullets are more accurate with slower rates of twist, and why the smaller the caliber becomes, faster twists work better (as a general rule).
Knowing this one fact would have saved me a lot of time, money and effort during the first year or two I shot a muzzleloader.

 

[david w]

Hello! I just bought my first flintlock it's a traditions deerhunter. Wondering if I can use sabots? Or just patched round balls? Thanks! I believe the barrel is 1:48 correct me if I'm wrong.

Please post your question on the "Modern Muzzleloaders Forum" We only discuss TRADITIONAL muzzleloaders here. Thanks for your cooperation.

 

[smokepolehall]

Please post your question on the "Modern Muzzleloaders Forum" We only discuss TRADITIONAL muzzleloaders here. Thanks for your cooperation.

Yes indeed i can see that now even though i have my 2 rock sparkers its time for me to move on.

 

[Bushfire]

Yes indeed i can see that now even though i have my 2 rock sparkers its time for me to move on.

I've been around both forums a lot longer than my current profile would indicate, 10 years at modern and maybe 5 here. Both are great places. This forum went through a time with lots of arguments and bullying, so I got Jack and left. Most trouble makers have petered out, unfortunately some of pur best members too but it's a lot better these days and I love checking in.

I know the no modern talk rules seem ridiculous, I used to think that. And in the past I've seen threads discussing traditional muzzleloaders locked because someone felt the discussion might lead to inline which is overboard in my mind. But I've also seen forums where rules aren't enforced and it ends up a mess.

Better to have both and check in where you want as you see fit.

 

[smokepolehall]

I've been around both forums a lot longer than my current profile would indicate, 10 years at modern and maybe 5 here. Both are great places. This forum went through a time with lots of arguments and bullying, so I got Jack and left. Most trouble makers have petered out, unfortunately some of pur best members too but it's a lot better these days and I love checking in.

I know the no modern talk rules seem ridiculous, I used to think that. And in the past I've seen threads discussing traditional muzzleloaders locked because someone felt the discussion might lead to inline which is overboard in my mind. But I've also seen forums where rules aren't enforced and it ends up a mess.

Better to have both and check in where you want as you see fit.

Your correct , i did not know when i came to this Forum it was like a private sandbox. Its not the words not use i mind. Its the overbearing chest thumping from some whom seem to the they a King up n up. Nuff said think i shall just read Threads n posts of interest for myself

 

[tenngun]

OP

The laziest rifle twist rate ever devised by man was the 1:48 twist. A compromise. An unholy coupling of fast and slow that doesn't spin any projectile exceptionally well.

I won't address plastic sabots here. But I will say petroleum based bullet cups work best with fast twist rates. 1:20, 1:28, etc.

They may give poor performance in your barrel.

Most of original rifles were 1/48. Jake and Sam’s Hawkens were 1/48.
Its problem comes from depth in this case. Shallow is good for conical, deep for ball. The compromise is tge bit too shallow for ball bit too deep for conical.
Conical was helped by the ring engraved at loading a thick patch and moderate charges does the job.

 

[hunter thompson]

ALL missing the point...1/2 -reduced knock down power ...for more distance and flatter trajectory isnt my cup of tea.SIDE hammer brother-in law thought it would be great..He shot a turkey with a 44 cal sabot out of a 54...the turkey got away...lol

 

[Bismarck]

Hello! I just bought my first flintlock it's a traditions deerhunter. Wondering if I can use sabots? Or just patched round balls? Thanks! I believe the barrel is 1:48 correct me if I'm wrong.

I am sure I will get a lot of disagreement here but I have found that a Lee .500 minnie sized to .498 works great in my 1/48 twist barrels and loading is a cinch. I usually just grease with crisco in the cup.