Sabots in Flintlocks

[Allan]

I will apologize right up front if I offend anybody for shooting anything other than patched round ball out of my wonderful flinter.
"I'm sorry..."
There, now the question.
I have a 50. cal. flinter,1 in 48" twist,a 39" barrel with shallow grooves.I was wondering if anybody has any experiance shooting saboted bullets and what would be the smallest bullet I can shoot with a sabot out of my rifle. I think about a .32 cal. but I can not seem to find any good data.
I shoot 3F for primer and main charge with an enlarged touch whole. Great ignition every time.
What should I do for conical bullets as far as a grains of powder to grains of lead ratio.
Any thoughts?

 

[kvistads]

Allan:
I hate to admit it but I just purchased a Knight IN-line muzzle loader this year. It was at a reduced price or I probably wouldn't have bought it. Having said that, it is the ONLY thing I have ever used a sabot with. It did pretty good but then it has a 1 in 28" twist.

IMHO I would never use sabots in my flintlock!

It shoots one ball (hole) through another at fifty yards anyway. Why would I want anything better. Besides, I like to shoot. If you purchase those silly sabots like I did, you can barely afford to sight the thing in let alone have a lengthy practice session with them. I cast my own round balls from spent lead off the range (free)!

I shoot them till I'm TIRED of shooting. Then I make more......get the picture? I've also killed many deer - all with RB. Hope this helps.

 

[roundball]

I've experimented with sabots in my .50cal TC Hawken prcussion 1:48" rifles and they were very accurate...flint locks with the same barrels should be no different.

Don't know about a .32cal in a sabot in a .50cal bore...never heard of anyone even making such an offering.

Normally a certain size sabot is used that fits a
rifle bore (ie: .50cal) designed to hold the next smaller caliber bullet (ie: .45cal).

I've used .45cal Hornady 225 & 230grn, Speer 260grn, and Hornady 300grn bullets in .50cal
black sabots with great results, using 90 and 100 grains of FFg.

Shooting is a fun sport...go experiment with sabots in your flintlock and enjoy!

 

[Zonie]

If you had a barrel with a 1:48 or faster twist I don't know why they wouldn't work for up to about a 250 grain pistol bullet. I think heavyer bullets would not stabilize with a 1:48 twist.
Most of the flintlocks I've seen though (and all of mine) have Slow twists and would not stabilize a elongated bullet. In other words they are for round ball only.
As was mentioned the sabots are Expensive and I'm sure they wouldn't hit in the same place as a round ball so you couldn't sight it in using the inexpensive round balls and then expect it to hit in the same place with a sabot.

Just my opinon, I have never tried it.

 

[musketman]

You could use a flintlock to shoot a bag of sabots.

That ol' round ball will send those plastic "patches" a flying.

I guess I could load a 12 gauge shotgun plastic wad in my brown bess and call it a sabot, ummm, no thanks.

 

[Allan]

Thanks Musketman,
My reason for asking the question in the first place was I have been reading up on deer hunting with ML's and read that the PRB does not have the energy left in it at 100 yrds for a clean, quick kill.
I now realize, after reading much of what you guys have written on the subject, that PRB is just fine.
Personaly, I would not take a shot at 100 yrds, I just don't think I'm good enough to risk anything other than a sure, quick kill. That means getting closer. Besides, here in Connecticut and most of New England for that matter, there are few shots at 100yrds except for power line right of ways and corn fields.
So, seems my origanal question has become mute.
Thanks all of you for your help.

 

[LRB]

It's all more a matter of bullet placement rather than power. A RB from a 50 will certaintly get the job done with a reasonable powder charge at 100yrds. If you do not shoot that far anyhow you should not be that concerned over it. Hold your shots within the range you are comfortable with and you should have no problem. Accuracy and the skill to use it is what counts the most.

 

[tg]

I think you have found the "way" all I can add is to be very carefull when relying on maimnstream outdoor magazine writers comments about what a traditional outfit will or won't do, there is little in the way of factual info from those sources.

 

[kvistads]

I second Wick's comment.

I hunt with my .45 caliber flintlock longrifle using no more than 60 grains of 3f. My target load is 40 grains. It shoots most accurate with that ammount of powder. I take half of that (20 grains) add to the 40 which makes 60. I've SLAMED every deer to the ground I ever shot at with this load. The ball flattens (expands) upon impact. What a wicked combination!

Like Wick said - it's all about placement. I used to doubt what a r.ball would do but not anymore.

 

[musketman]

Between the hype and technology, humans tend to over complicate things.

For most of the history of muzzleloaders, game was taken with round balls, it wasn't until modern times that the plastic sabot made it's way into the world of black powder.

I sure that during, and after the civil war, deer and the likes were taken by minie-balls and such, but you just can't beat shot placement.

If muzzleloaders have effecently taken game with round balls from the beginning, why use anything else.

I can see using a heavy bullet if you are after grizzly bears or cape buffaloes, but for deer sized game and smaller, it's patched round balls.

Even a shotgun's "SHOT" are round balls.

 

[Allan]

Thanks Wicks, TG and Russel,
I had a rather graphic demonstration of how much energy IS in the PRB.
A freind of mine allowed me to shoot at his club in the next town over. After severel walks down range to examine targets, I noticed a standard No Parking sign someone had placed as a spoof at about the 50 yrd mark. The sign had a dozen hits on it at least but no holes just deep dents, perhaps just some 22's I reasoned. I was encouraged to leave my signature on the sign with my flintlock so I loaded up with 60 grains, .495 hornady and a 10 thou. patch. I could not see the impact because of the smoke but my son said it looked like an M-80 went off on the sign. A quick trot down range revealed an entrance hole an inch across and an exit hole that blew a two inch junk of steel out the back of the post holding the sign. To make sure I did not hit a weak piece of post and because everyone thought it looked great, I did it again with the same results.
If there is enough energy to make holes like in thick sheet metel and steel posts, there is plenty to take down deer.
Sports writters should shoot post once in awhile.

 

[kvistads]

Allen:
Glad you got a chance to see fot yourself just what energy is in that PRB.

If you ever harvest a deer with one at the same yardage, you'll be even more convinced. It tickles my inards to find someone like yourself who has discovered the truth. All this "modern" blackpowder inlines and sabots are hyped up so the manufacturers can sell more - period. What people don't know is that it's been here for hundreds of years already!

Decent blackpowder arms and ammo that is.......

 

[LRB]

Very good Russell. Allan, welcome to real muzzleloading.

 

[musketman]

quote:Originally posted by Allan:
A quick trot down range revealed an entrance hole an inch across and an exit hole that blew a two inch junk of steel out the back of the post holding the sign. Now all you neeed is for a deer to hide behind a sign.

I was always impressed with the energy of a round ball, I shot a .54 caliber round ball through a wet rail road timber before. (we had a few for landscaping)

It sent splinters everywhere.

I split a 10 inch diameter log with my brown bess before, the .735 round ball mauled the log into three chunks.

That was fun...

 

[kvistads]

Musketman:
And to think that men used to march in rows standing upright to receive vollies of those .735 balls! Poor fellows......

 

[flinttim]

Sabots and a flintlock ? Aw, heck, why not. I bought a 1-20 twist , .50 cal barrel off ebay for 7 bucks. Made my own hardware, used a pc of walnut that blew down on the club property, added a large Siler and I have a cheap hunting gun. I'm really just a RB kinda guy but thought the thing would be sort of unique. Going to hunt whitetail this year with it.

But I will say this, I have taken deer every year since building a .54 Early Virginia rifle, and when one of those .530s hit home, the deer ain't going far.

 

[tyspappy]

I tired the Hornady SST/ML in my flintlock and had one heck of a time loading it. It didnt want to go down the barrel I swabbed the barrel after every shot and the on fourth one got stuck about a foot into the barrel and that was it for shooting had to go home to get it out needless to say I am done trying those

 

[musketman]

If I had to choose, I would rather clean lead from my barrel than melted plastic.

I never has to worry about patches though, they seem to shoot out with the round ball...

How about that eighteenth century technology, its something else, isn't it?

 

[tg]

"How about that eighteenth century technology, its something else, isn't it?" yes it is wonderfull! I just find it odd that so many have such a hard time associating ML guns with it.(VBG)

 

[musketman]

The hype from the media (stores, magazines, ect...) play a big role in the public's eye about what is the right projectile and muzzleloader to use.

It all comes down to who's funding the study $$$.

Many of the younger people that I work with feel the patched roundball and traditional muzzleloaders are obsolete.
Truth is, more game has been killed with the round ball than with modern muzzleloader projectiles.

It doesn't hurt that the patched roundball had a 200+ year head start.