Sad but true....

[tg]

The only possible way to change the flow of the tide is state by state have the traditional hunters get togetjher and really push for true traditional ML seasons, no conical bullets and modern sights equals no modern ML's, we have what we have due to a overly liberal standard that left the door open to modernize the sport, it is likley to late to swing things around as most ML hunters have come to accept the mix of old and new and consider the modern bullets and adjustable sights and peeps as "traditional" the bar has been set so low for so long it will probably remain as it is but it never hurts to try, and right here is a good place to break new ML hunters in on the true traditional side of the sport, with the sytle of guns, sights amd projectiles that were used in the past without hanging on to thin shreds of similarities to justify all the modern stuff.

 

[kevthebassman]

All of us "Old Farts" and our past-time will be a forgotten memory in ten tears.
Our half stocks, and longrifles will be curios for sale in some pawnshop for 5 -10 dollars or best offer.
Enjoy it while you can!
Ben there done that!
Old Ford

I don't think that's the case at all, Old Ford. I'm only 21 myself and am completely hooked, with the worst incarnation of the muzzleloading sickness; flint and roundballs. I've gotten several of my friends interested in flinters, my best bud couldn't believe how fast ignition was with my TC Renegade, and my groups are as good as you can get with simple open sights.

As for your halfstocks and longrifles turning up in pawnshops for $5 or best offer..... well I can dream, can't I?

 

[jbwilliams3]

I concur. I'm twenty-three and have every intention of passing my interest on to my children should the Lord will it.

The best all of our elders can do is pass it on to younger folks. I wanted to get involved since I could walk but only was able to take a step when a man stepped in and said "go ahead and save up for a flintlock and i'll teach ya how to make it work."

Before then, I was just dreaming.

 

[ronrryan]

I think the shooting of traditional flint and caplock guns will persist in some form, might even come back some day greater than now. But as to returning to traditional weapon seasons, like Penna flint only, I do believe that pandoras box can never be sealed again. There's just too much money in it now. For the life of me I dont see why they dont just have longer seasons and be done with it, the use of zip guns is a charade IMHO, Good Smoke, Ron (up with flintlocks)

 

[CrackerJim]

Well, I'm doing my part to pass it on. I've got two sons. We like to shoot shotguns (clay) and I've got them shooting older bolt action battle rifles, lever guns etc. Now we're shooting BP PRB. Hopefully, they'll enjoy it enough to keep involved with it down through the years. :thumbsup:

Jim

 

[DOUBLEDEUCE 1]

We could probably stand another good movie or two like "The Alamo" or "Last of the Mohicans" to generate some more interest in the sport. Disney really kicked it off for a lot of us when he produced the Davy Crockett series. I still have my coon tail, but the rest of the cap is history.

 

[kevthebassman]

We could probably stand another good movie or two like "The Alamo" or "Last of the Mohicans" to generate some more interest in the sport. Disney really kicked it off for a lot of us when he produced the Davy Crockett series. I still have my coon tail, but the rest of the cap is history.

And there will be one, sooner or later. It'll generate a lot of interest that will very slowly tail off until the next movie.

As long as there are muzzleloader seasons there will be those infernal zipguns. Too much money involved for them to go away.

However, if the game associations decide to go to a single, longer, "use what pleases you" season, the inline companies are gonna go tits up.

 

[pchwcf50110]

The only possible way to change the flow of the tide is state by state have the traditional hunters get togetjher and really push for true traditional ML seasons, no conical bullets and modern sights equals no modern ML's, we have what we have due to a overly liberal standard that left the door open to modernize the sport, it is likley to late to swing things around as most ML hunters have come to accept the mix of old and new and consider the modern bullets and adjustable sights and peeps as "traditional" the bar has been set so low for so long it will probably remain as it is but it never hurts to try, and right here is a good place to break new ML hunters in on the true traditional side of the sport, with the sytle of guns, sights amd projectiles that were used in the past without hanging on to thin shreds of similarities to justify all the modern stuff.

out of my three original (not reproduction) British muzzleloaders, two have adjustable sights. two are bullet guns and the other is a ball shooter. one has an original peep sight. so these rifles are not traditional enough? they were all made before 1860. does the narrow scope of "traditional" only apply to american frontier style rifles? this has always been the problem with this argument. at what period do we freeze time at to call muzzleloaders traditional? are European guns not traditional because they were more "modern" with their stock dimensions and sights? are my guns "more traditional" than yours because mine were made way back when instead of using CNC locks and modern manufacturing methods?

 

[colmoultrie]

Well, we were talking about American hunting seasons, not European. A common cutoff for "traditional" is the end of the fur trade era - commonly accepted at about 1840, although one can certainly find exceptions, and people obviously didn't just stop building weapons in 1840.

The 1850's and 1860's, however, were the beginning of a revolution in firearms technology, and the weapons changed dramatically in a very short period. They were not traditional designs when made, and they didn't last long enough in common vogue to become traditional, as they were (relatively)quickly supplanted by cartridge arms. They are great, interesting firearms, but they were not traditional then, nor are they now.

The question about hunting regulations and a muzzleloading season really seems to be a question of whether to hunt the way Americans did in the 18th and early 19th century, accepting the limitations on performance that Daniel Boone, Simon Kenton, or Davy Crockett did, or whether to take advantage of all the improvements in technology since then to be able to stay out in the woods longer and harvest more deer. If the latter is your objective, then why not make regular seasons longer?

I'm not a hunter myself, but I hate the way that people have applied 20th and 21st century technology to a "primitive" season. It smacks of home-run "records" set by taking steroids. :shake: :shake: But then again, I'm a 40-year-old crank who generally doesn't watch the Olympics because the "amateurs" competing there are anything but. :wink:

 

[Tumblernotch]

The only possible way to change the flow of the tide is state by state have the traditional hunters get togetjher and really push for true traditional ML seasons, no conical bullets and modern sights equals no modern ML's, we have what we have due to a overly liberal standard that left the door open to modernize the sport, it is likley to late to swing things around as most ML hunters have come to accept the mix of old and new and consider the modern bullets and adjustable sights and peeps as "traditional" the bar has been set so low for so long it will probably remain as it is but it never hurts to try, and right here is a good place to break new ML hunters in on the true traditional side of the sport, with the sytle of guns, sights amd projectiles that were used in the past without hanging on to thin shreds of similarities to justify all the modern stuff.

out of my three original (not reproduction) British muzzleloaders, two have adjustable sights. two are bullet guns and the other is a ball shooter. one has an original peep sight. so these rifles are not traditional enough? they were all made before 1860. does the narrow scope of "traditional" only apply to american frontier style rifles? this has always been the problem with this argument. at what period do we freeze time at to call muzzleloaders traditional? are European guns not traditional because they were more "modern" with their stock dimensions and sights? are my guns "more traditional" than yours because mine were made way back when instead of using CNC locks and modern manufacturing methods?

Here's the problem: Advocates of inlines, as well as those agencies in charge of hunting regulations, &c. have over-simplified the term muzzleloader, and we traditionalists have over-complicated it.

To those people, it's simple; if you load it from the business end, it's a muzzleloader, even if you load it with rocket fuel and prime with a car battery. We, at least from the various posts I've read over the last 3 years, want to see nothing but rocklocks and roundball accorded the coveted title of "traditional". We want to forget that aperture sights, multiple barrels/cylinders, various ignition systems other than flint, telescopic sights, elongated/expanding bullets and even inline actions have been around for many, many years, some for centuries.

It boils down to what is our definition of "Traditional"? I believe that term is a misnomer. Webster's Dictionary defines tradition as "the handing down of information, beliefs and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction." Hardly fits this situation, does it?

Ever since the dawn of gunpowder weapons, man has sought to improve them. Make 'em shoot farther, more accurately, faster, cleaner, &c. Each improvement, once established, was embraced by the shooting public as a whole. Except perhaps by the military, which was always slow to adopt new things and often fought hard against them. (There is the one place where "tradition" may be an apt term).

Things have developed to the point that we have the modern inline that we all hate. Shiny stainless steel encased in a plastic stock firing compressed powder under jacketed bullets, primed by modern shotgun primers or electronics and sighted by high-power telescopic sights. Now, some of these "improvements" may have been adopted by our forebears if they were made available in their time, and that's the argument some use today to justify them. But they weren't, and that's our argument. Not "Tradional", you know. But then, some of us say against the argument that only roundball flintlocks with open iron sights should be classified as "Tradional", they had conicals, Minies, percussion, peep sights, multiple barrels and so on. And the argument goes on.

When the earliest muzzleloader season opened here in WV as well as PA and other states, the key word used was "Primitive Weapon". Now, I know that even a flintlock is far from primitive as a weapon. That term more aptly fits a club or spear or bow. Heck, even today's bows could hardly be called primitive! But as far as firearms go, the flintlock and earlier ignition guns using round balls could and should be classified as "primitive". Using that classification, only the weapons fitting that description were allowed. But within a year, in WV, percussion guns were included which was no problem, but things just snowballed from there.

I think that our biggest gripe about the influx of the modern inline rifle is the fact that its only merit is the fact that hunters can use it (under distorted DNR definitions of "Muzzleloader Season") for an extra week or two of deer hunting. And the fact that most if not all of those hunters never shoot them any other time, at game or targets, nor do they have an interest in muzzleloading other than for those extra hunting days. I have no problem with a guy who wants to use one of these things to hunt with, but I do resent the attitude that many have taken that only inlines with their "improved" accuracy and knockdown power should be used and that the older style weapons that we use be relegated to the museum wall. I'm sure some of this comes from the fact that many of these shooters come from the world of modern smokeless weapons which use jacketed bullets and high-power scopes.

The other gripe is the fact that modern ML supplies and guns have pushed sidehammer guns and supplies such as BP off the shelves of all but a handful of stores. The inline crowd can be blamed for some of this, but I believe the bulk of the blame can be laid at the feet of the lawyers and government. Over-regulation and unfounded fears about BP, lead and primers have probably done more to damage the sport than any other.

I was just talking to another club member and we discussed getting our membership up. I believe that the key is to let the public know who we are and what we do. We even opened up an inline classification a couple of years ago and there were no takers. I'm sure that there are many out there who would be interested if they only knew we existed. And yes, I'd welcome those who shoot inlines as well. I'm looking at writing something up for the local papers and getting some new flyers made up and distributed to sporting goods and gun stores. We did it on a small scale a few years ago and attracted a few, but it needs to be done again and in a bigger fashion.

Only by getting the public more aware that muzzleloading is more than a deer season will get them involved in a great sport and possibly getting pressure put on the stores to once again start stocking their shelves with the things we need at an affordable price.


:thumbsup:

 

[tg]

I think we tradtionalists have been looking at this the wrong way..we should support modern ML hunters season and have a liberal limit of 4 or 5 that can be taken each week.

 

[tg]

" they had conicals, Minies, percussion, peep sights, multiple barrels and so on. And the argument goes on.'

right, then let them use the type "they" used to use..not the modern designed and improved versions

 

[dodgecity]

Shooting the traditional muzzleloading guns never died out. Before the modern resurgence of interest, it was carried on by a small dedicated fraternity that was more numerous and more active in some regions than others. Turner Kirkland has to get some credit for exposing more shooters to the fun of building, shooting, and collecting traditional firearms in the 50s and 60s, but the real surge came with the nation wide celebration of the nation's bicentennial in the 70s. Suddenly everyone wanted to know more about our early history of the 1700s. Federal and state monies were available to restore colonial and revolutionary forts and sites, and reenacting at those restored sites caught the imagination of a generation of shooters. Suddenly everyone wanted a traditional arm. It was only natural that manufacturers would respond and special hunting seasons would follow. Rendezvous and muzzleloading clubs sprang up even in the most unlikely places. Now the novelty has worn off, the fickle have moved on to other things, but dedicated hardcore enthusiasts remain. Their knowledge and historical standards have grown and matured. We have probably the highest number quality smiths dedicated to traditional arms since the 18th century, and an array of other craftsmen that can rival the craftsmanship of that earliest generation. Their private research has yielded knowledge and facts about that period that were all but lost only 40 years ago. A host of good books on muzzleloading guns and the age in which they reigned have been published during that period, and we continue to share and to educate ( this forum is a good example), and occasionaly we find kindred younger spirits who embrace our ways. In many ways we are living in a second golden age of traditional arms. I am content. Let the inliners and the modern hunters have at it, I carried a flint long rifle afield before our state had a muzzleloading season and I and my long time companions will continue to do so regardless of how the seasons may change.

 

[Tumblernotch]

" they had conicals, Minies, percussion, peep sights, multiple barrels and so on. And the argument goes on.'

right, then let them use the type "they" used to use..not the modern designed and improved versions

I agree that we should stick to the "traditional" arms and ammunition of the past. My point was that an argument can be made for or against any type by anyone.

 

[flintlockmdj]

I once worked in a local Wal-Mart, there objective is to have a store that is set up so that the first person to walk in off the street can be put to work in any opening in the store with a minimum of training. They don't want a person who knows something about what they are selling. I tried to get into sporting goods one time to work, I thought they were going to have a heart attack. Some young lady got the job that didn't know a rifle from a shotgun. If you know what you are doing then you might think that you are not being paid enough. All the average worker needs to know is where the item is located and how to find the place on the shelf to put another.

My son and I went to a Bass Pro Shop recently. Those folks ought to be ashamed, they had GOEX black powder $19.95 per lb. CCI percussion caps, $5.95 per hundred. Side lock rifle and pistol kits on a shelf. If you go there to buy something you had better go to two banks and rob three beer stores first.

 

[Robert Egler]

I once worked in a local Wal-Mart, there objective is to have a store that is set up so that the first person to walk in off the street can be put to work in any opening in the store with a minimum of training. They don't want a person who knows something about what they are selling. I tried to get into sporting goods one time to work, I thought they were going to have a heart attack. Some young lady got the job that didn't know a rifle from a shotgun. If you know what you are doing then you might think that you are not being paid enough. All the average worker needs to know is where the item is located and how to find the place on the shelf to put another.

My son and I went to a Bass Pro Shop recently. Those folks ought to be ashamed, they had GOEX black powder $19.95 per lb. CCI percussion caps, $5.95 per hundred. Side lock rifle and pistol kits on a shelf. If you go there to buy something you had better go to two banks and rob three beer stores first.

Actually, our local Wal Mart has a guy in sporting goods who knows what he's talking about. I think he's retired from somewhere else and only works there part time.

I can get Goex from a distributer in the state for $10 a pound, but it's a tank and a half of gas to get there and back. Or I can get it at one local gun dealer, who I happen to know buys his stock from the same distributer, for $22 a pound. That's a pretty good markup, even if he doesn't get a dealer's break from my price at the distributer. With the price of gas, it's cheaper to get it locally at $22 than it is to make a trip and get it at $10.

An interesting thing is that if you call the local dealer and ask if they carry black powder they'll say no, but if you go there in person they always have it. What's the deal with that?

 

[pichou]

That's how it is at Cabellas too. 2 hour drive, and they point you to the Pyrodex and pellet fuel. Then you say, "No, real black powder." Then you fill out a 40 page form and promise your first born child to them, and they finally admit they have Goex in stock.

Maybe a Homeland Security thing? Of course, you have to drive by a dozen fireworks places on the way there. :shake:

And fireworks are made with what? And made where? OK, I feel safer. :rotf:

 

[ronrryan]

I dont know if this is germane or not, but when our local sporting goods store gave up carrying black powder (I got the last couple cans)they said it was because of general harassment by the Batf guys, who obliged them to buy more and more elaborate storage containers and locks and came around regularly for timeconsuming inspections and paperwork, until finally they said the hell with it. Too bad. Now I get 5 lbs at a time, no sweat (except the price) Good smoke, Ron

 

[CrackerJim]

I guess I'm somewhat lucky that at least the Bass Pro store carries Goex BP. None of the local gun stores carries it and only one of them has any other ML supplies.

At Bass Pro, it's not out on the shelf but readily available. A counter person goes back to the "vault" and brings it out ($19.95/ lb).

Ordering off the web in small quantities (I don't have storage facilities for more than a few pounds) with the hazmat fee saves some but I'm thinking for the small extra expense, it's worth purchasing locally to keep them interested in stocking it. :surrender:

Jim

 

[CG6018]

Dixon's is nearby, and I'll get my annual transfusion of flintlocks over the weekend by attending the Gunmaker's Fair. I'm taking along a newbie to blackpowder shooting, and he's taking his checkbook. He wants to join my family's three generations of flintlock shooters during our special flintlock season after Christmas.

Our season has been "modernized" with fiber optic sights, peeps, conicals, plastic stocks, and stainless steel, but the charge in the barrel still must be ignited by flint and steel. :thumbsup: And, we have an abundance of public hunting land that remains uncrowded during the late season. Check us out. :wink: