Sad Story

[Runner]

We planted 40 acres of foodplots on 1400 acres one year. It isn't about foodplots. I scouted sign and saw deer working the property all year. It isn't about scouting. It is not about killing early on opening day, altho that is a sad thing in itself for a hunter. It is about hunting. I shot a small meat deer opening morning out of a group of deer. I took it back across the lake, dressed it, processed the meat, and went back hunting. I helped track another deer that evening. I dressed and processed my nieces first deer. I tracked another persons buck. I killed a big doe. I dressed and processed her. I help process my fathers kills. I was there for my nieces first deer.
There is so much more to hunting than just killing an animal. Like I said, it is hard to explain unless you already understand.

 

[Claude Mathis]

If you don't see the sad part in that story, then I doubt I can explain it. It has to do with hunting and what that means for me. That is hard to put into words. I have lit sage and given thanks on my knees after a kill, altho I do not do so every time. I put in food plots. I scout. I process my own deer and all of it is eaten by us or friends, but the needy would be a worthy choice also. If you don't see what was lost in that hunting story, we see some things differently.

I understand your feelings about "hunting", and I agree with you. He was not hunting by our definition.

What the man did was "harvest" an animal for food, much in the same way that we harvest cattle or chickens. It's not hunting, but that's how most food gets on the table.

 

[Claude Mathis]

SICK----- If one wants to help others buy them some gro.

Do you mean buy them some beef that someone else killed? Or do you beleieve that no one should be allowed to eat any kind of meat unless they killed it them selves?

I NEVER take something (fish or game) for others. just my HO :shake:

Sharing is a noble attribute and it gives one a great sense of satisfaction and pride, knowing that you've helped those less fortunate than yourself.

Speaking of burning sage and giving thanks on one's knees, I've heard that in some Plains tribes, the best hunters were required to give some of their kill to those who could not hunt or had no family members to hunt for them. It was an honor to be seen as one who helped his people.

 

[roundball]

I helped track another deer that evening. I dressed and processed my nieces first deer. I tracked another persons buck. I killed a big doe. I dressed and processed her. I help process my fathers kills. I was there for my nieces first deer.
There is so much more to hunting than just killing an animal. Like I said, it is hard to explain unless you already understand.

I don't think it's hard to explain at all...and I think your post draws conclusions and makes inferences that you don't have the proper amount of information to base them on.

You need to pause a moment and realize your current view you just expressed is through your life's experiences to date...and not to assume that because we didn't mention them in our responses, that we don't understand or haven't done for decades the very things that you just listed as your personal hunting philosophy.

The thread was essentially about patterning and taking a deer over a man made food plot...that's all I was responding to...not the total universal spectrum of hunting philosophies, laws, baiting, ethics, tracking deer, dressing deer, etc...I've understood hunting for about 50 of my 60 years...understand it well.
:v

 

[Tahquamenon]

Nothing at all wrong with this story.

Some of the folks here describe this as if he guy in the story was hunting over a bait pile, which I am opposed.

In fact, the guy went to considerable expense and effort to put in a food plot which is of great benefit to the habitat.

For those that prefer "stalking deer in the wild" of the 21st century. Unless you are in a really remote area with no agriculture...

The next time you find yourself stalking and then harvesting a deer, be sure to thank the nearest farmer. Afterall, it was his hard earned corn, beans or fruit agricultural food plot that helped to sustain the deer you just harvested.

Just a perspective... :hmm:

If you don't watch where you are going, how will you ever learn from where you have been?

 

[CrackStock]

Many of your sentiments strike a chord with me and I waver between shouting "Amen" and arguing with you. Therefore, I will toss out a few counter points for good natured contemplation:



I spent this morning hunting on the side of a ridge with a large amount of hardwoods which provide a natural source of food which is a great place to hunt for all kinds of game. After a great deal of percolating on the subject in the cold morning, I decided that there really is not that much difference between what I am doing and what he does when you boil it down. I just did not plant the oaks, pecan, walnut and beach trees. I just scouted and learned where they are located and confirmed that they are being used. I guess there might be a difference there. I am still struggling with this and open to comments here.



Actually, he has me here in that I left the space alone after turkey season. All through the summer I was lazy and only scouted this fall a week before the deer season.



Seems like either an exaggeration on his part or he may have hunted before shooting hours to me. Got to puzzle on that one a bit further. I was out at 0600 this morning and it was light at... Hmmm, possible, but unlikely that I could have dressed it and returned home that soon. But, if he hunted behind his house...



I rarely keep these, prefering to tan the buck skins and make the antlers into powder measures, knife handles, range rod handles, priming horns...
However, many friends mount deer heads in their houses. To each his (or her) own.



Does he not enjoy the taste of venison; is he lazy; or is he generous? Maybe it is a bit of all three, but someone benefits and the meat is not wasted. It is not my way. (I killed a deer a week ago with a flintlock that I put together. I dragged it out, dressed it, packed it in ice and boned it out after aging it for a week. Last night I sauteed fresh backstrap medallions in white wine, onions, celery, cilantro and mushrooms all over some rice. A feast for my son and me. All of this was a source of pride and enjoyment to me. On the other hand, I see no problem with his providing a meal for others from his efforts. After all, it is his property now. I just do not think that he understands what he missed and pity him for that.

Sad story? I think that may well be so in some respects. But he likely bought a license, pays his Pittman Robertson taxes, fed more than he took and gives to charity. Not exactly my chosen way, but in some ways commendable.

I often remind myself that as not all ways are my way, so my ways are not for all.

CS

 

[Runner]

The story is supposed to hit everyone differently. That is how it should be. I still see it as sad. Others don't. The meat was used, and I doubt he did anything against the law. The foodplot does benefit more deer. The something that makes it sad for me is hard to put into words. I don't see any of his actions as a definate wrong. The total picture is so wrong to me as to make me question some of my own actions, just like you said you did in your thinking. The tradition of the hunter feeding those less fortunate is an old one and a good one. I guess it is just a difference in people, where they were raised, and how they learned.

 

[bulletman]

Good ole USA, I hunt for meat period, I do not enjoy the killing at all, And I would never kill for a trophy or mount. Its already obvious we are smarter and kill them very easily, I dont need thier head on my wall to prove a point or feed an ego.I actually feel a bit sad after a kill, BUT, Its about food with me. God put them here for us to eat. And I love meat.If I can shoot them out my back door then fine..I would not critisize another mans ways unless its illegal. I'm just glad I can go out and put food on the table and feel proud for doing it, And if some one else wants a trophy, go for it !.But I wont.

 

[Stumpkiller]

True enough.

The sad story I saw two days ago was the lung shot doe that was stiff and cold in a thick brushlot where whoever shot her never found her. That's a story that only the coyotes and chickadees will find any happiness in.

I feed deer all year out of my garden (like it or not), watch them from pups to adults out my kitchen window, and then go deer hunting 20 miles away because they're too close to the houses. :haha: Though, I have taken a couple from the back hill in late season if nothin's shakin in my distant grounds. Great bowhunting spot.

 

[Bradley]

Define "sad".

In my opinion, the only sad thing about it is, he paid for a hunting permit, and used it up early in the day. Didn't even get to "enjoy" the season.

For years, we would go up to Canada or northern Minnesota to fish. We used to come back with coolers full of fish. Over the course of the years, the take home limits got smaller and smaller. It finally got to the point where we would come home with a dozen freezer bags full of fish. Hardly worth the trip. That was sad. What was the point of going at that rate? I haven't gone for years since then. Sure, you could probably go up and practice "catch and release"...kind of tough to do if you hunt, though.

So, the guy spent his permit money to go out for an hour and come home. Yeah, to me that's sad, because you don't really get to enjoy it.

Then again, I personally think going to a shooting range is sad. Did it once, and hated it. I prefer to go out to the woods and plink away at stuff...even if it's just an old tin can I set up on a stump.

Using black powder, but getting in a car to drive to a modern shooting range, only to stand in a cue shooting at paper targets, all the while pretending "Yup, I'm a mountain man". Well, that just seems sad. Although, I know there are MANY people on this list that use shooting ranges. I have no problem with it. If you enjoy it, or if that's the only place you can shoot, by all means...go out and enjoy it. That's what they're there for.

Same goes for camping. I prefer to pitch a tent on a sandy beach along the river, throw out a pole, build a fire, kick back with a beverage, and just enjoy the evening.
But, we have many modern campsites around. One even has CABLE outlets in each lot. Just back up your RV, plug in the power, plug in the cable, and enjoy your air conditioning, cable and electric appliances. Ahhh, the great outdoors. Just plain sad. But, I have no problem with the people that do it. If that's what they enjoy, so be it.

Now, if your definition of "sad" is that the deer was killed without a long "man against beast" scout across the country, or that it should be a sacred ritual to take a deer, come to Iowa and Nebraska. Deer are so thick, they are almost a plague. Even tonight, I had to nearly stop TWICE coming home from work because there were deer on the road. They are a nuisance. They are turning into a problem. The city is even considering in-city hunting. So, in our particular case, there is no need to spend a day tracking them. There are days you almost need an old train "cow catcher" on the front of your car just so you don't end up with a dented fender. Here, they are not so much an animal to be revered, tracked, and prized, but rather an overgrown varmit that causes thousands of dollars of damage each year.
I personally don't deer hunt, because the only part I REALLY enjoy is deer heart, sliced up and fried in butter. Now, to kill a whole deer just for the heart...THAT would be sad. Therefore, I don't hunt them. I choose other animals to hunt.

So, what may be sad for some, may be "normal" for others. I guess, as long as it's legal, who's to say what's really "sad". It may not be my way of doing it, but your way may not be my way. And my way probably isn't your way, and the next person reading this will have a totally different way of doing things altogether.

Sorry I got to ramblin' there. That's just plain sad. :winking:

Brad

 

[Dave K]

Ok. this will strike a nerve, but that is ok by me. I am a trophy hunter. I can afford meat at the store. I enjoy the hunt and all that goes into taking a trohpy animal. I am NOT a meat hunter that takes the first deer that walks by. If you do and are happy with that, I am happy for you. Many years, I pass up small 8-10-12 ptrs. that will make worthy opponents in future years. Even then, as hard as I try, I may not place my tag on them. I do mount the deer I take or I wouldn't take them (rarely,I have hunted a deer or two for meat). I do not waste any meat and it is all consumed.It just may be that I don't take a deer for 5 yrs. as I work to get the big boy. So am I wrong to enhance my ground to make it better for wildlife on my farm? Am I a bad boy for being a trophy hunter, who only seeks out mature and noble animals? I was bowhunting tonight and I let a rutting 12ptr. go past chasing a doe. He had very good stature and bone structure and a good future for the local herd. He was about 17" wide and the G2's were right at 8". I am happy to have been in the "zone" with him and hope to see him in the same place 2 years from now! I hope it makes it through orange army week next week.Where anything that flies, dies. Or if it is brown, put it down. I am having a hard time understanding, that because someone hunts for a different, but very legal method than you do, it is morally wrong. I guess, I don't understand, how a meat hunter can take the first meat on the hoof that goes by? Even a farmer looks over his herd to determine which animal should be harvested, instead of just taking the first one that goes by. So am I wrong? By whose standards? Yours? :hmm:

 

[bulletman]

This is a great thread...many outlooks here, is good to see..Dave K..I find no problems with your views either, just different from mine..Thats what I love about this country, we can all do as we darn well please, And even in doing that our friends respect us and dont mind...my views are just that, I am not right or wrong, just different..I'm glad we can all aproach this how ever we want and enjoy the sport or harvest, which ever way we look at it.

now if you want my ideas on Taliban..THAT would be some GREAT sport hunting !

 

[longfowler]

The only sad part to me is that he's done in the first hour, and misses out on all the fun for the rest of the season!

 

[Catof9tails]

I'm kinda putting in my two cents and really not replying to Harpman. Harpman just happened to be at the end of the comments at the time. Hope you don't mind Harpman. This is a reply to all posters.

I've done my best to digest such a diversity of opinions on this topic. And found many good points. This is an excellent topic.

We have 50 states in our good Old USA and not all state laws are the same. Some states you can hunt under a feeder or planted plot and some states you can't. Some states have more deer than others, which can affect the regulations or hunting techniques. Wildlife Biologist assist in setting hunting regulations to keep the population in check. Over population means disease and disease means a severe drop in numbers. And yes, I don't doubt it's money driven. However, if the biologist don't do their job, then they get beat up by the public. So I see some hunting laws specific to some states to allow feeder/planting hunting for population control in an urban interface environment. On the flip side, if you have a high population then whats the need to plant? To me, that's a negative response because you are supporting the "over population". Then again, If I'm a land owner, their might be some money involved for hunting leases. Getting to the point. If the act was legal within state laws, or even if he owned the land, I can't complain. On the back side, I can't complain because the meat did not go to waste and I hope it went to a needy family that cannot afford daily food rations. And got to mention, he got a nice rack out of the deal, but within state laws.

In accordance with this thread, some agree and some don't agree with his actions. Myself, I don't agree, but I understand how regulations are set for deer population control. Plus, I'm a utilitarian. I shoot what I can eat and if I draw an extra tag, I donate. I figure I help out the state and a needy family; all within state laws.

Of course, I'm fortunate to hunt Federal public land and I prefer it do to the thrill of the hunt. Guess that's why they call me the Cat.

Cat9

PS: Did anyone see that Roundball gave up his age! (just joking with ya Roundball)

 

[CrackStock]

Bob,

I thank you for the exercise in reflection.

CS

 

[Birddog6]

Just a few thoughts on this:

It is a he said, she said, you said, that I said, that we said story & most likley it is just plain "Someone Said" B.S. story..........

The guy is a shooter, not to be confused with a hunter......... he wanted to brag on his kill to the locals & show he was smarter than the buck... OK. he outsmarted it & lured it in & killed it. Not my idea of a hunter, but at least he didn't waste the meat like the orange brigade a$$holes that left the 2 big bucks headless laying along the side of the road in Gallia County 2 years ago during shotgun season in Ohio. Now THAT pisses me off.......... all the people that would take the meat & need it, yet these fellas are too lazy to even gut them, just off with the heads & leave the carcasses by the roadway to waste. THAT is sad...........

But anyway, what this guy did we assume is legal & what he did with the mount is his business as it was taken legal. (we assume)

As for not using the meat himself ? Right ? Wrong ? Well, that all depends on how ya look at it. I usually shoot 2-3 deer a year (we are allowed 2 a day for about 90 days of season) One of the deer is for me & my family & the other one or two is for a family friend that needs the meat. (Single mom & 4 kids to feed) Is it right for me to kill a deer & help them ? Damn straight it is IMHO, as it is legal, they need the food & I can supply it for them. I shoot them one or two, cut it myself, cost me $15. to have the burger ground & I package it & freeze it & store it for them. When she needs it, I furnish it. Really helps her out with the bills & it makes my hunting season last a lil longer. If you think that is wrong, then we see thing in life differently......

As for the food plots. IMHO it helps us keep a better quality of meat, healther deer & etc. I am not a rack hunter as I seldom see a big buck. Oh there are a couple around but I seldom see them, just once in a while. But raising food plots for them to me is no different than hunting the edges of the corn & soy fields up north when the deer are grain fed & then run from small woods to small woods for cover........ Difference here than there is less grain & we have more woods & the deer are harder to keep in your area......... So if you want to see any here where you are alloweed to hunt & nice healthy deer, around here you best have some food plots to bring them around. We don't have 170,000 acres to wander around on & hunt like the could hve in the 1700's.... we have a limited amount of acreage & the quality of the herd & population on that limited area is directly a result of the food & cover available. So planting a foot food plot is necessary here....... Nutherwords a pine cone diet usually produces skinny scrawny deer...... and fewer of them per acre than a grain supplimented diet will produce.

Anyway, just a few thoughts on it. I am not justifying what he did. You always have a guy in the area that does this for bragging rights. If it had been cow season or goat season, would have been no different, he was there for braggin rights.... I am pleased & suprised he didn't waste the meat tho, as usually that is the mentallity that goes hand-in-hand with the braggin rights......

 

[Pork Chop]

I agree with the vast majority of the posts on this thread. I am not and have never been a trophy hunter. I am by no means the great deer hunter either. I have taken exactly one deer in my life, and have shot at two (bad ammo was the culprit on the one that got away - good news is that I missed completely, so no injured deer as a result of me there!) I hope to get a deer this year. If I do, great! If I don't, that is OK too. If I get more than I can use, I have a neighbor with 4 kids that has a tight budget. He would be the recipient of some of the excess.

Sharing the harvest - regardless if it is grain or game - is a good thing to do.

I whole heartedly agree that harvesting a deer and only taking its head for a mount - leaving the rest to rot - is unethical. To me THAT action is SICK. nuff said...

 

[roundball]

PS: Did anyone see that Roundball gave up his age! (just joking with ya Roundball)

:grin:
Never tried to hide it...will hit the big 60 in a couple weeks...hanging on to 59 as hard as I can, but the clock keeps moving.

Lucky to have such an enjoyable hobby as hunting and shooting, learning about Flintlocks, etc...and some good people through the Internet to learn from and share it with...
:thumbsup:

 

[Bountyhunter]

I only hunt my family land. Over the years, we have managed our deer herd for larger animals.

When I hunt, I hunt for the Alpha buck. The biggest, oldest buck on the place. Deer continue to grow up to about age 9 or so. However, they begin to loose their fertility about age 7. That means they get sterile~~they are shooting blanks. When we allow bucks to age over 7-8 years old, they are big enough and old enough to whip the younger bucks, but not fertile enough to settle the does. Therefore, we end up with a lot of does not having fawns. On our place it is important to cull out the old bucks so that the younger 4-5 year olds continue the genetics of larger bodies and racks. As a general rule, unless it is a misfit, we do not allow anyone who hunts our land to shoot anything under a 5 year old. Most often those will be the larger 4x4's and sometimes 5x5's.

Also, we cull out the spikes and basket bucks, only the biggest and the best are kept. What I call a basket buck is a buck whose rack is narrower than his ears, whose tines are 6" or less, even though he maybe a 5x5, his antler measurement may be 125 or less. Those little guys gotta go, cant run the risk that they be left to breed. This has paid off for our herd. In Texas, the cheap hunts get you the management bucks, those are the basket bucks I'm talking about.

I've shot a lot of 160"+ bucks off of our place in the last 15 years or so. While I generally hunt on foot, walking out the places that the old bucks live, I dont hesitate getting one of the local kids to come get those basket bucks. I only get one buck license where I hunt, and I dont waste it on spikes or forks. Often I hunt with some others who need the meat, and I encourage them to take those animals which we consider unfit for our herd.

I guess that makes me a trophy hunter, but in my eyes it makes me a herd manager. We now have more deer, larger deer and healthier deer than before we started this practice. Perhaps I should clarify a couple points here.

Spikes, once a spike, always a spike. Spikes are genetic misfits and do not contribute to herd health. They just breath the oxygen that the big boys need. If they are successful in breeding a doe, most likely, she will bear a smaller unfit fawn, and if a buck fawn will likely be a spike.

Forks are not 4 pointers on our ranch. They are babies. They are the the youngsters who were born early last spring. They are the ones who will grow to be the old ones. Killing a fork horn is robbing the cradle, and is not something that you let anyone catch you doing, lest they tell everyone and ridicule you until next season.

Something about this original thread doesnt pass the smell test to me. Even in the Eastern time zone, 0530 or 5:30AM would still be dark. Most states regulations specify legal shooting hours as 30 minutes before sunrise to 30 minutes after sundown. That is first light or enough light to be able to see your sights in the morning. My gut feeling is, either the teller of the story, exaggerated about the time, or he shot the deer before legal light. Lying about the time is one thing, cheating on the time is poaching.

My last ML deer was taken at 7:05 on the first morning, 30 minutes after first legal shooting time in Kansas. I had walked into the area that I know well from childhood, and sat back in a low growing cedar tree overlooking a creek bottom and waited. **That** buck came lounging into my zone. It was a now or never decision, and I took him. Season was over in 30 minutes, but that is the way it is. Fair hunt, fair chase. I had 4 doe tags left and filled a couple of them the next day, and season was over, and I returned back here with my meat.

Well, this is a mystery that will never get solved. I just finished smoking my turkey, dinner awaits me. Happy Thanksgiving from my family to yours.

Bill

 

[lockjaw]

I guess that makes me a trophy hunter, but in my eyes it makes me a herd manager. We now have more deer, larger deer and healthier deer than before we started this practice.

:thumbsup:....in my eyes that makes you a sportsman.