Same old question, but I need some help!

[BrianJ]

The story of bad (priming pan only) ignition seems to be beaten to death, so I hate to bring it up, but I don't ask without first having done some research. I thought that if I can give some specifics you all can point me in the right direction before my next trip to the range. The rifle is .45 cal, I am loading with 70 gr of 3f. Priming with 4f, a about a 1/3 -1/2 pan full, very close to the vent but not covering seems to work best. I am using patches pre-lubed with what looks like bore butter.
Priming ignition is never a problem, unless I've let my flint get dull. My first shot seems to go without a hitch. I swab once with a lightly moistened (spit) patch, sometimes I turn that patch over and run it down once more. It comes out with a lot of fouling and what look likes little brown chunks. I took pictures of the patches but it was after the ride home in my shooting box so all the chunky stuff was gone. I don't always remember to pick the vent everytime, but it seems like when there is no ignition, there may be more to it than that. Usually when it doesn't go off, it takes several tries and I end up having to pick the vent and pile a bunch of powder in the pan & on the vent hole and then it will go off. After a shooting session I clean with Thompson T17 and add a light coat of bore butter for protection.
I think my vent hole in in the right location and I'd rather not use a vent liner. It's 1/16 right now, not coned, internally or externally.
After a lot of research my plan is to try different patch lube, and maybe stop cleaning between each shot. I may need to clean the bore more thoroughly before I ever start too. Until now before shooting I have been cleaning it with dry patches until I don't see any bore butter on them. The rifle shoots good, probably better than me. That's a 50 yd target, ignore those two on the left, I was just getting warmed up. I know only practice makes perfect but I'd like anyone's help with ideas on what I should change next time I go out. Thanks.

 

[jethro224]

My guess is that you are pushing moist fouling down and blocking the touch hole.
Try only swabbing if it gets hard to load and see how that goes.
Also try using just a barely moist patch to swab. You may be using too much juice.
After the moist patch are you running a dry patch down?
Do you ever use a breech scraper?

 

[VEARL]

Had a simular problem with my flinter awhile back.
Bought me a barrel scrapper for my 36 Cal. flinter. Cleaned out a lot of crud at the bottom of the barrel that I wasn't getting clean by just swabbing the bore.
Could be that you are having tha same problem. It may be blocking your touch hole, until you poke thru it with you vent pick.
Your most humble servant, Vearl

 

[floyd1350]

i have never had good luck with commercial lubes. always too much crud. what works for me is animal fat rendered down to and oil with enough beeswax added only to keep it from running out of the tin i store it in. you don't need a lot on the patch to create a seal. no need to wipe between shots either. cleanup is with just water nothing else. can't be any simpler. 3f is what i shoot and charge the pan with. try it i think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

[Flash Pan Dan]

Jethro224 is right. I had the same problem and I could never run the between shots wiping patch down the bore consistently enough not to get it just above the powder chamber area. So now I swab the bore with alcohol soaked patches followed by some dry patches before I load the first shot. Shoot it and then I load the second shot and swab the bore after the second shot is loaded and continue the routine for the rest of the day.. I have shot all day this way and never had a flash in the pan and my accuracy improved. Worked for me, YMMV.

 

[jamesthomas]

I have a large siler lock, no vent liner. I get the best result (No flashes) if I fill the pan full. I swab (1 wet 2 dry bothsides) after every shot and run a cotton pipe cleaner thru the vent. Went shooting today, about 25 shots,they all went off like a percussion rifle. You might want to drill out your venthole with a #50 drill bit thats a 5/64th also.

 

[BrianJ]

Thanks guys, I go pretty light on the spit patches, but it looks like the fouling is really wet. Is that just the nature of black powder fouling? Also I think the animal fat lube is out of my league right now, can anyone recommend a good lube I can order or make fairly easily? I think I will try shooting without swabing too. I am sure I am pushing crud down into the barrel. The mark on my ramrod seemed like it was never going back to the original position after my first 2 shots. I have been reading a lot about drilling out the vent with a No. 50 bit too. I think I may try that as well.

 

[Zonie]

I think your plugging your vent hole with fouling from your swabbing.

Just imagine a pile of that burned powder riding ahead of your swab. As it passes the vent it thinks to itself, "Now THERE is a way out! I'll take it!"

Of course, being just dumb fouling it isn't smart enough to actually crawl out of the vent so it just sits there.

If you want to swab, just remember to pick the vent either before you load or after you've loaded and I'm betting 97% of your problems will be gone.

As for switching lubes, if you do, be sure to collect the shot patches and inspect them carefully.
Different lubes may have problems that the old lube doesn't have and cause problems with your accuracy.
On the other hand, a different lube may improve your accuracy. You never know until you try it.

Oh, I almost forgot.
The brown stuff you were seeing on the patches is unburned sulfur.
It is often red colored and some folks use to call it Dragons Blood and other strange things.

It was said that if you see that your load is right.

 

[Macon Due]

Brian
Take this for what it is worth as I am a novice. But......here are some things that work for me and that I have found out. If.... I pick the vent 'after' loading I tend to get slower ignition, so i pick it after firing to ensure there is no residue blocking it.Before loading for the first shot I wipe the bore with an alcohol patch and run a cotton ball with alcohol on it down to the breechface and wipe it. I then run a dry cotton ball down and then a couple of dry patches down the bore and a pipe cleaner thru the vent hole.I use Hoppes #9 Black Powder Solvent and Lube on my 20 thou. ticking patches. I do NOT wipe between shots and have no idea how many I could fire without wiping...I wipe my flint and pan every few shots [pan more often] When I am finished and clean the rifle I clean with slightly warm [thanks to the guys that said 'drop' the Hot water] plain water by plugging the touch hole and pouring water down barrel to let it set for a few min. Then pour it out, pull my vent plug and use a few wet patches to wipe and cotton balls for breech face.Then dry patches and cotton ball. i then run 91% alcohol patch and cotton ball down to get rest of water. Dry everything and then run a patch with Birchwood Casey's Barricade down the bore, every few days I check the bore by running another Barricade patch down it. I ofcourse have removed the lock prior to cleaning and let it soak in a bucket of warm water. Brush it with an old toothbrush,blow it dry with air compressor and hit it with spray lube [I use Remington 'Wonder Lube' spray]. I do also have my vent drilled to 5/64" and I prime with 4F using a primer that supposedly throws 3g. at a time [which I doubt] so I hit it twice which is about 1/3 to 1/4 full pan. Using this method the first time out with my TVM .45 I fired 45-50 shots straight with no malfunctions of any kind.
So take this for what it's worth......Macon

 

[ebiggs1]

First there is nothing wrong with Bore Butter. It is not the reason your rifle isn't reliable. But Bore Butter is not a good rust preventative so quit using it as one. Use a good gun oil. Use an alcohol patch to clean the oil out before shooting.

First I would do a through cleaning of the barrel and check it with a bore light to make sure. I would stop swabbing between shots, it is totally unnecessary and causes more issues than it ever solves. More powder in the pan is better than less so don't skimp there. I rarely use a vent pick but the time you need one they are sure handy.

Your photo looks like the touch hole is pretty decent size but if it isn't drill it with a #50 drill.

What kind of gun are we discussing?

 

[BrianJ]

Thanks everyone. All of your advice is great and I feel like I have a real game plan for my next range trip.

Ebiggs, the rifle is a Sitting Fox kit. Issac Haines, Early Lancaster .45 cal, Siler lock, with a 39" Green Mountain barrel.

 

[floyd1350]

my favorite lube is oil from beaver fat and it's not out of anyone's "league". just throw some fat (unsalted) in a glass jar and sit it in the sun until the oil is rendered out. pour off the oil into another jar. this clear oil will bloom and get cloudy in a day or so. let it settle and pour off the clear oil on top into another jar. you're done. use as is or heat and add beeswax. i add wax and pour into cap tins.

 

[BrianJ]

Sounds cool. Can I use any type of fat? i.e. beef. Hard to get my hands an beaver fat right now :grin: Thanks again.

 

[floyd1350]

yes. right now i'm using rabbit oil. clear as water. my wife's bunnies got lots of fat on them.

 

[George91946]

I'd Purchase Dutch Schoultz's Black Powder Accuracy course, and use his dry lubed patches. I had similar problems after 20 shots with an intershot cleaning patch. Was particularly bad with the guns that had a Patent breech. Once I switched to the dry patching method no more problems.

Lisle George

 

[Rifleman1776]

I believe focusing on the lube is the wrong place to start.
You say the fouling is wet. Where do you live/shoot? High humidity areas make bp shooting, particularly flintlocks, problematice. The 'mud' is part of flintrocking charm. It happens.
Don't over slobber on the swab patches.
However, methinks the touchhole might be a bit small for your needs. Consider enlarging and/or installing a vent liner coned from the inside.

 

[ericb]

Not to be redundant re: the advice above, but I would say before doing anything drastic, simply try picking the vent every shot. It only takes a second. If you're swabing between every shot, you certainly need to pick after loading, to ensure you haven't plugged the hole with gunk from swabbing. I can tell you that, if I'm not swabbing after every shot (and often I don't, especially with Musket), if I could only pick once, it would be immediately after firing. When I shoot, I pick after firing, and upend the gun & tap it. Often I can feel a klinker being pushed out of the vent when I pick, & it's amazing what falls out of the barrel. Also, these little chunkies, though solid looking, after a few minutes on the concrete pad at the range, often "melt", leaving black wet spots; they are water-laden. Thats why your patch chunkies disappear on the way home. If I hadn't picked the vent after the shot and upended the gun, these moist bits would have stayed where they were, or been compacted around the vent when I loaded, and interfered with ignition. Picking after loading only would simply shove this stuff around and contaminate the powder around the vent.

Shoot - Pick - wipe flint face & frizzen - optional upending of gun w/tap on the Butt- load - optional 2nd pick (I do) - shoot. Picking and wiping takes only seconds - I usually shoot 30-50 shots a session, and experience very, very few misfires.

Every gun is different - some could care less, and simply go off every time - some (as yours sounds) are picky - and need just a little more attention. My Harper's Ferry Rifle actually shoots tighter if I don't swab after every shot; my Charleville Musket gets snotty if I don't pick as above, but goes off like clockwork if I do.

FWIW -

Eric

ps - Consider also the old technique of placing a toothpick or feather in the vent before loading, which basically addresses the same issues above, though not as thouroughly...

 

[cas]

What brand of powder are you using?

 

[BrianJ]

Goex, for prime and main charge.

 

[Many Klatch]

Lots of good advice here. Here comes the contrary opinion:

I never swab between shots. I only use spit patch when I shoot. I have a fairly loose patch ball combination so I can load without having to use a short starter in both my rifles and smoothbores. I can shoot 20 to 25 shots (depending on the humidity) without having to run a cleaning patch down the barrel. I prime with the same powder as the main charge.

My personal opinion is that you are working too hard at this. Find a load that lets you shoot without having a pile of dirty patches when you are done.

Many Klatch