Schimmels- just how plain?

[Onojutta]

Tallbear,
I just read my response to you and it sounds pretty defensive. Sorry about that, wasn't my intended tone. On these forums it seems that I state that the sky is blue only to have several replies of "well actually if you consider the spectrum of wavelengths it's not technically..."
I appreciate different insights about this. As I said I know full well the controversy over the Meylin gunshop, but my issue with it is this... If the casual observer can look at the building and wonder how it could be a gun shop without obvious windows, or question the evidence supporting that Meylin was a gunsmith, I would expect the professional historians who examined it to consider the same questions. Now, it seems like it would be more than a little embarrassing if they went to the trouble of putting up signs and declaring it so without any sufficient evidence. I also have to consider that they would be privy to more information and records than the rest of us. Believe me, I am the first person to question the motives behind anything the government says or does, but in this case I have a hard time accepting amateur speculation as a nullification of a conclusion reached by professional historians. This area is in no short supply of history, so I can't see it being some sort of ploy to attract tourism. In fact, if you've seen it you know that it is largely forgotten. It's a far cry from a tourist attraction. Maybe you have some more insight on that than I do as to why the PHMC would draw such a conclusion based on such little evidence.

 

[Stophel]

That's the guy, Baker. (Beck, Becker, Baker, same thing)

To the best I have been able to find, there's nothing really to indicate that Meillin was a gunsmith. A real person, no doubt, but apparently not a gunsmith.

I've been to that little building (it's not far from the Herr house). Man, that's about as small as my little 12x12 shop! And I have big windows and an oxyacetylene torch! That building has no forge! It is an attractive little old stone building.

 

[Stophel]

Just thinking about very early, pre-1770 Lancaster rifles and what they must have looked like. I can't think of a single "very early" original that looks "Lancaster". I am talking pre-Dickert or pre-Albrecht when he moved to Lititz in 1771. I have always wondered though about some of Dickert's earliest rifles being classified by Shumway with the Christian's Spring rifles. I see the carving similarities but there's no stepped wrist like most of the Christian's Spring rifles.

Shumway illustated an uncarved, daisy patchbox longrifle with "Lancaster" architecture, guard form, sideplate form, etc in Muzzle Blasts in August of 1982. He proposed it could be a 1760's-1770's rifle. A very nice plain rifle indeed; the daisy box is not engraved and might be a later addition. It has a large bridled flat-plate English lock. The buttplate is very wide, 2 and 3/32". It lacks even beavertails at the termination of the lock panels. The original rifled barrel was probably 45" and is but .46 caliber and 15/16" thicjk at the breech- I guess that would be a "C" weight today. This would be a terrific rifle to inspire a plain early Lancaster build. If done with a sliding wooden patchbox, it could "look" 1760's, maybe. Of course most of us would use a bigger caliber just to save weight. But to save powder and lead, this would be a great build in .45.

If I'm thinkin' of the same gun, I'm more inclined to believe that it is about 1790, rather than earlier.

I've also wondered what a Pre-Dickert Lancaster gun might look like. Most of the recognized "Lancaster type" guns are obviously derivative of the Dickert/Moravian form. There is a fascinating gun by Peter Resor (I believe it's Peter, I don't have it in front of me). It's probably late Rev vintage, though one would like it to be earlier. It has marvelous, very German styled carving, and one wonders if this was a form used by the elder Roessor a few years earler...

 

[rich pierce]

That plain Lancaster rifle in the 1982 Muzzle Blasts has a huge wide buttplate. I give buttplates a lot of attention I admit but when I see 2+" wide and little curvature, I think 1770's.

I don't want to derail this topic but are you talking about the Peter Resor "ghost" rifle pictured in Steel Canvas? It has a figure of a ghost engraved on the patchbox finial. It is among the finest rifles ever made in my estimation. It has a Schroyer-style fleur-de-lis on the wrist and the carving on the buttstock is viney and exceptional. Looks Lancaster or Yorkish. Or you could be talking about Kindig's #18. I've discussed these and related pieces a lot with Tom Patton and in the past with Earl Lanning. We wonder if there's a relationship between Newcomer, Roessers and Schroyer (if he made the Free Born gun and a couple other attributed pieces) based on some carving details of guns attributed to those guys. All used the fleur de lis and some unique signatures in the buttstock carving seem similar. Fun to think about and maybe some documents will turn up someday showing they passed though the same shop at some point in their careers.

 

[Stophel]

This one is in one of the Whisker books, I think it's just called "Gunsmiths of Lancaster county". It's the only place I've seen this gun.

The cheekpiece has a lot in common with that of the Newcomer gun (which, by the way, I don't find to be anywhere near as attractive a gun...).

 

[Onojutta]

This one is in one of the Whisker books, I think it's just called "Gunsmiths of Lancaster county". It's the only place I've seen this gun.

The cheekpiece has a lot in common with that of the Newcomer gun (which, by the way, I don't find to be anywhere near as attractive a gun...).

I believe I have that book. It is also by Kauffman if I remember correctly, and is only a few pages. I'll check when I get home.

 

[rich pierce]

Think about it a minute. You build a basic rifle, lock stock and barrel, period. It would have these basics, and probably a single thimble holding the ramrod. So when a customer comes looking for a rifle he can take what's there, as is, a BASIC, no frills gun or may say, "I would feel safer witha trigger guard. I've got a little more money, so add a butt plate to protect the heal when loading and a nose cap to keep the forward end from splittin'. OK, I'm a little "well off", so I'd like a little nice carving on it, maybe a fore end moulding. or really well off and I want a patch box with a little "scratchin'" on it. And et al. Kinda like the old days of buyng a car. Take the basic or add or order "options" depending on what you could afford or needed for personal needs. Call Chuck, he'll be glad to talk to you.

This idea of building a basic gun that could then be "fancied up" to customer wishes may have been the case in a limited geographic region and timeframe, by gunsmiths who were making cheap schimmels for the local farmer and nicer rifles for other customers. There's no evidence that such was done elsewhere outside the hotspot for Pennsylvania schimmels in Berks county and adjacent areas and before 1790. And most of the true Pennsylvania "schimmels" were smoothbores.

There just are no rifle guns lacking buttplates and guards and entry thimbles that can be attributed to other gunmaking centers in Pennsylvania or to earlier timeframes. Yet they are prevalent in one area and confined to a short timeframe. So we cannot reason that they were made everywhere, all the Lancaster ones got used up, and all the Berks county ones were preserved.

Repeating myself: No examples of early (Revolutionary War and earlier)schimmel or barn guns are known. No Lancaster or York, etc schimmels or barns guns are known from any period. If one is known I'd love to see it. Dozens of Berks and adjacent area schimmels are known all dating from 1790, earliest estimate, to 1830's. Draw your own conclusions.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

I don't want to rain on anyones parade paticularly the state of PA,but there is a lot of controvercy about Meylin actually being a gunsmith.The building pictured in not a gunshop.It might be on the sight of a gunshop but this building is not his gun shop.What's my reasoning you ask!!!!There are NO windows!!!Gunsmiths can't work without light.. :wink: :wink:

Mitch

Well, maybe.... Tallbear, read the information on the archeological research done at the shop. Also, Chris, there apparently was a German style, centrally located forge, the remains of it's footings and iron, slag and charcoal as well as ash were found by the archeologists. In short, the building has undergone some changes, especially with a new roof being put on in the 19th Century but the building does appear to date to the earliest white occupation of the region. The research does leave some questions unanswered but the report is very forthright in it's statements of that fact. Read it and see what you get from it:
http://www.millersville.edu/~socanth/mylin gunshop site report.pdf


None of this of course proves that Mylin was even a gunsmith but....

 

[tallbear]

Onojutta
No i don't have any more insight,wish I did.I also don't mean to be confrontational just disscusing history out loud.About 15 years ago I spent a day at Landis Valley (which at the time had a great display of gunmaking tools and rifles)talking to one of the curators and this subject came up.As far as he knew there was no documentation to back up the states claims.There certainly could be but as far as I know it hasn't been found by several who have searched for it.As far as the states conclusions being reached by professional historians I'm not sure they were!!!Who did the reasearch and where is it!!It is not my intent to dispute the reaserch but to find out if it was done and where it is!!I guess I'm acting like a devils advacate when voiceing my opinions hopeing someone has the answers.
In answer to why the PHMC drew these conclusions again can only speculate,but I can relate a story that has happened in my own community.We have several of these markers in my hometown here in N.Y.They were installed during the frenzy of the Bicentennial duly researched by the official town historian.A couple of them are completely spurrious based on local legend instead of fact but are prsented as fact,one denoteing a local blacksmiths shop isnt within a half mile of where the shop stood.When confronted with these facts(which are easily reasearched) the town has no interest it fixing this,so over time these legends have become fact!!

Mitch

 

[tallbear]

Va.Manuf.06
Thanks for the link!!I've read that before.I never said the building or the site of the building isn't fron the period just that I can't see it being a gunshop.The survey done by Millerville doesn't prove that it was a gunshop.As far as I can tell it says there is evidence of blacksmithing which I stated I would expect to find a blacksmiths shop on a farm as large and self sufficient as Meylins.

Mitch

 

[Stophel]

This one is in one of the Whisker books, I think it's just called "Gunsmiths of Lancaster county". It's the only place I've seen this gun.

The cheekpiece has a lot in common with that of the Newcomer gun (which, by the way, I don't find to be anywhere near as attractive a gun...).

I believe I have that book. It is also by Kauffman if I remember correctly, and is only a few pages. I'll check when I get home.

No, this is one by James Whisker. It has guns and also a good bit of gunsmith biographical information. Like all the Whisker books, it was a pretty limited edition. I somehow happened along at the right time to get one when they were available (instead of paying a hundred bucks or more afterward, like so many other books!) Hardcover that has a picture on it (made like school textbooks) of a guy with a wooly beard holding a turkey. Again, I don't have it in front of me, so I'm not sure of the exact title.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Va.Manuf.06
..........As far as I can tell it says there is evidence of blacksmithing which I stated I would expect to find a blacksmiths shop on a farm as large and self sufficient as Meylins.

Mitch

You are correct, a large farm would have had a blacksmith shop, especially in the early days of settlement when they had to be self sufficient. As far as a gunsmith shop? Could be questionable.

 

[Stophel]

Just for the heck of it, here's the blacksmith shop on the grounds of the Boone Homestead in Berks county.

 

[Onojutta]

Looks pretty similar to the Mylin building. In the early 18th century, I doubt there was much difference between a blacksmith and gunsmith. In fact I have read the some gunsmiths were blacksmiths.

 

[Zonie]

The book is
Gunsmiths of Lancaster county, Pennsylvania by James Biser Whisker. Old Bedford Village Pressford Pennsylvania. My edition is a revision of the book published in 1991 and was published in 1995.

As with most of Dr. Whiskers books much space is spent on biographies of the gunmakers in the Counties indicated in the books name.
There are some pictures of the various rifles produced by some of these gunsmiths.

Perhaps the most notable weakness of Dr. Whiskers books is the lack of description of the pictured guns. That is to say, he seldom mentions the caliber, length of barrel or the sizes of any other important features.

I admit I didn't spend a great deal of time studying the individual guns shows in this book but the only guns I saw that could be called a "shimmel" by me appeared to be a few shotguns with no patch boxes or other forms of "extras".
Most of the guns shown have full patchboxes and a fair amount of carving on them.

 

[Many Klatch]

In Indiana I have heard those guns called "Hog Guns" or "Hawg Rifles". A farmer needs something to kill a hog and it doesn't have to be fancy. A farmer's wife may need a gun to keep deer, rabbits, groundhogs out of the garden, again the gun doesn't have to be fancy. Schimmel, barn gun, hawg gun they are all the same answer to the same question, just modified some by local conditions.

Just my opinion.

Many Klatch

 

[tg]

"As with most of Dr. Whiskers books much space is spent on biographies of the gunmakers in the Counties indicated in the books name"

There is also a lot of good estate records and advertisments from period publications in Whiskers books. The last gun in his book on Gunsmiths of the Carolinas is about as close to a barn gun as he shows.

 

[Mike Brooks]

As soon as I saw the picture of the meylin building I thought "Blacksmith". Mainly because of the big doors so you could bring a horse in or something big like a wagon for repair. Just like the pictures Stophel posted. I have no idea whether Meylin was a gunsmith or not, but I doubt that building was used as a gun shop.

 

[Zonie]

Apparently Dr. Whiskers in his Gunsmiths of Lancaster County Pennsylvania book doesn't know if Mylin was a gunsmith either.

He shows photos of the same building and the sign in his book but he does not list Martin Mylin as being a Lancaster gunsmith.

 

[loojack]

Many Klatch: Any photos of that "schimmel" of yours?

Yes, I'd like to see it also. Thanks