Load for Uberti Walker Revolver

[M. De Land]

- Battered wedge slots in the barrel assy.
- Battered wedge slots in the arbor.
- Battered wedge.
- loose arbors get pounded from the frame because of excess endshake.

Any and or all of these lead to a loose wedge as well as a wedge that can be bent to a point that it has to be hammered out.
All of this means the wedge isn't tight in the revolver which is why the battering takes place.

The ultimate damage is loss of the end of the arbor.
View attachment 370939
Obviously all of this is done over a period of time with enough round counts.

All this has been repeated several times over the last couple of years. Sadly, the same questions get asked by the same folks.

Bottom line is, fix the arbor if it is short and none of this will happen (whether you understand the WHY or not) unless you think "thumb pressure" is all ya need.

Mike

Those two little strips of steel is all that keeps the barrel from going down range until it doesn't any longer !

 

[Jim in Wisconsin]

And that can happen whether the end of the arbor touches the bottom of the hole in the barrel or not.

 

[Garbear34]

The old Lyman / Ideal #45266 bevel base semi-wadcutter was pretty good in a Walker. The RCBS 45-220-CAV design (below) worked well also when the rear bands were swaged down small enough to slip into the chambers.
View attachment 369936

Question on the Ideal / Lyman #45266 mold you have used. What is it dropping at diameter wise? Think if big enough use in my ruger old army and my walker.

 

[45D]

Those two little strips of steel is all that keeps the barrel from going down range until it doesn't any longer !

And that can happen whether the end of the arbor touches the bottom of the hole in the barrel or not.

Neither one of you understand the dynamics of the platform, but you're probably 80% of the crowd that keeps asking the same questions.
You should just sit back and be amazed that they function at all!

As for my personal revolvers, it should amaze you that they shoot what they shoot (nothing less than 21K psi and usually 23Kpsi). Barrels still in place, shooting jacketed bullets, no signs of wear or battering . . . They just seem to defy what you say will happen.

For the rest of you, the secret is what is screwed into the frame and how well the mechanical setup keeps the other end from leaving. (They weren't NEARLY as dumb as some seem to think!!)

Mike

 

[45D]

Those two little strips of steel is all that keeps the barrel from going down range until it doesn't any longer !

Barrel AND wedge, that's the way they are set up from the factory (except for current Piettas) and how YOU set them up with a "tool steel" wedge. You and the factory leave "space" between the arbor and the barrel assy (there's a great big ol' hint right there).

Mike

 

[45D]

And that can happen whether the end of the arbor touches the bottom of the hole in the barrel or not.

Well, definitely if there's NO contact. If there IS contact but there's no real tension from the wedge (since apparently it's not "driven" in!) it could happen . . . BUT, if there is major tension from the wedge pulling the barrel AGAINST the arbor end . . . It WON'T!!!! See!!!! You stumbled all into it !!!! That's how that works - something can't go where there isn't any room for it to go . . . it's also why drilling a hole in the end and putting an adjustable wedge bearing in has no ill effect on the setup . . . let that steep . . .

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

Neither one of you understand the dynamics of the platform, but you're probably 80% of the crowd that keeps asking the same questions.
You should just sit back and be amazed that they function at all!

As for my personal revolvers, it should amaze you that they shoot what they shoot (nothing less than 21K psi and usually 23Kpsi). Barrels still in place, shooting jacketed bullets, no signs of wear or battering . . . They just seem to defy what you say will happen.

For the rest of you, the secret is what is screwed into the frame and how well the mechanical setup keeps the other end from leaving. (They weren't NEARLY as dumb as some seem to think!!)

Mike

Your supposed knowledge of design strength comparisons is most underwhelming !

 

[Jim in Wisconsin]

What Karma (Colt) said about preventing the barrel assembly from going too far back and hitting the cylinder - establishing a minimum gap - makes perfect sense.
Strengthening the gun somehow doesn't seem to make any sense. If those two strips of steel on the top and bottom of the arbor slot give out, nothing ahead of that will matter. How could putting tension on the part of the arbor ahead of the slot make it stronger? Any destructive force is pushing the barrel away from the frame, not towards it.
I'm looking for a logical explanation, not an argument.
Insulting me personally or being extremely insistent doesn't contribute anything worthwhile.

 

[45D]

Your supposed knowledge of design strength comparisons is most underwhelming !

Ok, I'm doing it, you sit behind a keyboard.

 

[45D]

What Karma (Colt) said about preventing the barrel assembly from going too far back and hitting the cylinder - establishing a minimum gap - makes perfect sense.
Strengthening the gun somehow doesn't seem to make any sense. If those two strips of steel on the top and bottom of the arbor slot give out, nothing ahead of that will matter. How could putting tension on the part of the arbor ahead of the slot make it stronger? Any destructive force is pushing the barrel away from the frame, not towards it.
I'm looking for a logical explanation, not an argument.
Insulting me personally or being extremely insistent doesn't contribute anything worthwhile.

Don't know what was "insulting" but, whatever.
I just explained it to you right in front of your face!

Mike

 

[Dude]

Strengthening the gun somehow doesn't seem to make any sense. If those two strips of steel on the top and bottom of the arbor slot give out, nothing ahead of that will matter. How could putting tension on the part of the arbor ahead of the slot make it stronger? Any destructive force is pushing the barrel away from the frame, not towards it.

A simple way of looking at it: if the arbor is short and doesn't bottom out, then the wedge stretches the slot. However, when the arbor bottoms, the wedge traps the arbor end between it and the bottom of the well. The arbor will be under a certain amount of tension needed to secure the barrel.

If the arbor doesn't bottom out, then when fired, the barrel adds tension to the arbor, which can stretch since there's room to move deeper into the well.

And then when it's stretched, the next instant it wants to return to its original shape, returns, bounces, back and forth. Ringing. Oscillations. Maybe only a fraction of a thousandth of an inch, but the more that happens, the larger the oscillations. Heavier loads increase the magnitude and wear happens quicker.

True - those two strips of metal alongside the wedge slot don't seem like much, but when the arbor bottoms, they seem to be enough.

 

[Smokerr]

Strengthening the gun somehow doesn't seem to make any sense. If those two strips of steel on the top and bottom of the arbor slot give out, nothing ahead of that will matter. How could putting tension on the part of the arbor ahead of the slot make it stronger? Any destructive force is pushing the barrel away from the frame, not towards it.
I'm looking for a logical explanation, not an argument.
Insulting me personally or being extremely insistent doesn't contribute anything worthwhile.

Jim: With all due respect, its been presented in several ways. At that point its a couple of takes. You are not going to get it because its not in your wheelhouse. I get that, there is a whole lot (including Open Top) that are not in mine. I can shift my mechanical non syncro gears and get the idea. I can not design it, I can't machine it but I get the idea and I can grasp that Mike has proven it. I don't do the kind of work on these Mike does. But I get it. Any slop is going to batter and enough battering and the pistol gets wrecked. Good enough.

Yea Mike had to chew on me a bit, I did not get it. But he did not give up on me (thank you Mike). I gots lots of mechanical experience but this is pretty unique (maybe is unique).


But then lo many years ago, I ran into a creature called a reversing pneumatic relay reversing a pneumatic signal. Why not a normal direct acting relay? Well they screwed up and it is a tool in the tool set, sometimes its easier to just use a direct signal and reverse it for part of the function. Other times they screw up and its a slap fix. And don't even get me started on IR and their infamous Overhung crank air compressors.

The other aspect is you don't want to get it. That is Mr. De Land. I would like you are not that but ........

One thing you have missed clearly, the Wedge on the Cylinder side (they go in from the wrong direction on anything other than a 447 Walker!) bears against the front barrel assembly.

Take a look at your arbor, the front of the slot is flat. The rear is a milled out curve.

Look at your wedge. The barrel side is slanted, the chamber side is flat.

Now look at your near chamber side of the barrel assembly. Its flat on both sides.

Want to guess where the bearing surface is on that side?

Ok, now take the wedge out completely (possibly have to remove the screw). Put the gun together. Look through the Wedge slot. What do you see?

Now where do you think the Arbor should be in regards to the hole in the Barrel Assembly?

 

[D Yager]

What I find interesting is the about face here with some folks, they are onboard when the Colt document was revealed about the arbor needing to be seated yet now that thought has turned 180 degrees. Either you believe the short arbor is a problem or you don't. By not believing it you can go ahead and wreck your pistol. I've repaired enough Walkers and Dragoons to know the arbor problem is a for real issue. And yes Mike knows what he's talking about. That slot cut into the arbor is designed to take the load in tension not shear. There's adequate material and strength to handle holding the two parts together along with the wedge which is filling the slot. If it worked in 1847 with soft iron parts it will definitely work now with much better steel.

 

[Smokerr]

I will freely admit I was questioning to start with and Mike was good enough to persist.

We are beyond lucky to have him. and his willing top share and persist

 

[Garbear34]

What I find interesting is the about face here with some folks, they are onboard when the Colt document was revealed about the arbor needing to be seated yet now that thought has turned 180 degrees. Either you believe the short arbor is a problem or you don't. By not believing it you can go ahead and wreck your pistol. I've repaired enough Walkers and Dragoons to know the arbor problem is a for real issue. And yes Mike knows what he's talking about. That slot cut into the arbor is designed to take the load in tension not shear. There's adequate material and strength to handle holding the two parts together along with the wedge which is filling the slot. If it worked in 1847 with soft iron parts it will definitely work now with much better steel.

Point me in direction on short arbor fix. I keep hearing its an issue on the colts. I have a walker couple colt navys and honestly i still dont understand the fix or how to do it.

 

[Jim in Wisconsin]

Smokerr - thanks for writing a very nice response. It isn't that I don't want to get it- I have absolutely no "iron in the fire". I am interested in mechanical things and how they work and have spent my life working in machine shops - electronic control systems - machining, fixing broken stuff in general. Grew up with a South Bend 9 inch lathe in the basement and made lots of projects, and ruined a few too. Trained as an Electronic Technician (in the vacuum tube days). In my spare time I mess around with old cars - I don't think there is a nut or bolt from a 1933 Ford that I haven't had in my greasy hand (and threw a few against the wall). Now I work on 1960's Volvos.
I think I do understand how the wedge works and what bears against what, although I don't have one to look at. I had a 1860 army years ago, traded it to a friend because I didn't like the disappearing rear sight I guess.
I can easily see that having the end of the arbor hit will establish the minimum gap between the barrel and the cylinder, and now that you talk about vibrations, that does make sense.
When the bullet hits the barrel, it does drive it forward (away from the arbor) and the only thing that can prevent that is the wedge - right?

As far as "believing" it, there is a saying in science - "You don't have belief, it has you!"

Maybe this entire Muzzleloading forum is not for me - over and out.

 

[45D]

I can easily see that having the end of the arbor hit will establish the minimum gap between the barrel and the cylinder, and now that you talk about vibrations, that does make sense.
When the bullet hits the barrel, it does drive it forward (away from the arbor) and the only thing that can prevent that is the wedge - right?

As far as "believing" it, there is a saying in science - "You don't have belief, it has you!"

Maybe this entire Muzzleloading forum is not for me - over and out.

Jim, when the bullet hits the barrel, the barrel cannot move forward. If it did, the wedge would be deformed. That is exactly what happens when the arbor is short. The two assemblies "vibrating" at different rates cause damage to the wedge and slots. The wedge can't be tight with an air space in front of the arbor. When the wedge is tight and the barrel is drawn against the arbor end, the 2 assemblies are "married" and behave as a solid item. The end of the arbor tight against the barrel assy alows the "vibration" (harmonics) to be transmitted from assy to assy freely.
So, when the bullet hits the barrel, it is really trying to remove the arbor from the frame. If that joint is loose, the same "fight" will be there and that joint will eventually fail. That's why I always remove the arbor and reinstall it with heavy torque. That "verifies" the "connection" at the arbor /frame.
Because "communication" is not interrupted, my revolvers will tolerate the energy of firing 23Kpsi loads.
Of course with the larger diameter of the Dragoon arbor, the tensile strength is much greater and with the same setup can "probably" handle close to 30K . . . which is what I'm working up to.

Mike

 

[D Yager]

Point me in direction on short arbor fix. I keep hearing its an issue on the colts. I have a walker couple colt navys and honestly i still dont understand the fix or how to do it.

There are several methods to fix the short arbor. First thing is to check for the short arbor by tapping the wedge in as far it will go. If the cylinder locks up it's short. Fixing it can be done by adding washers in the barrel socket and adjusting the barrel/cylinder gap to .002 to .004 using feeler gauges. Other methods include a button head screw threaded into the end of the arbor, welding and building up the end then dressing it back to the desired dimension. The main thing is be sure the end of the arbor seats solid in the barrel socket. There is a fellow out there doing pistol work that is using a 10 32 set screw in the arbor to adjust the fit. This doesn't work so well on account of the load being concentrated in a small area so it pounds a divot in the bottom of the socket. The arbor needs to have 100% contact in the socket. You can PM me if you would like your pistols fixed.

 

[M. De Land]

Ok, I'm doing it, you sit behind a keyboard.

All your doing is pushing the design perimeters past what the replacement cylinder manufactures will guarantee is safe and so far have gotten away with it. The improved tensile strength of modern steel alloy that has allowed your folly to this point is all that has been tested. As was stated before , run the pressure up to magnum levels for 500 rounds in a safe test environment and then crow about how smart you are concerning design strength !
I notice the makers of the replacement modern cartridge cylinders don't recommend your practices, wonder why that is !
I don't just set behind a key board, I actually fabricate, heat treat, fit, test an photograph more technically sophisticated steel gun parts than you do ! What I don't do is encourage general loading practices outside suggested manufactures recommendations.

 

[45D]

All your doing is pushing the design perimeters past what the replacement cylinder manufactures will guarantee is safe and so far have gotten away with it. The improved tensile strength of modern steel alloy that has allowed your folly to this point is all that has been tested.

Ummmm, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I've been saying all along. I'm testing the "PLATFORM".
(Sound familiar?)
And no, the correct "design" is being tested as well. I honestly doubt your "perfect wedge " theory would hold up. You're welcome to try.

As was stated before , run the pressure up to magnum levels for 500 rounds in a safe test environment and then crow about how smart you are concerning design strength !

And why would I do that? Doesn't sound very "scientific"!

Mike