Schooling the Fools

[longcruise]

You erroneously credit me with with so much that I'm doubtful of your reading comprehension!

I did not discuss flinching!

here it is again; the longer it takes for the charge to go off, the more possibility there is of the POA drifting from what the shooter intended. It's that simple! And, of course, the converse is true. In light of that fact, a better shooter will be more successful in controlling the variable of ignition speed.

The cap is faster and therefore inherently more accurate!

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Again, you blame the system for the shortfalls of the person pulling the trigger. Same misplaced blame, different day. it is the Shooter that drifts off POA during the delay, not the gun. Do you seriously expect the rest of us to believe that guns have sufficient self-direction to change their point of aim at random?

It is and always has been the Shooter's extent of control or lack of it.

 

[Archie]

Oh the things I learn on this site. Nipple huggers and suppository guns? :rotf:

There is no doubt the "rock lock" requires a higher level of attention to detail and situational awareness than other types of ignition systems. Modern shooters have the luxury of giving up on flintlocks when things get difficult or frustrating. The people who really want to shoot the flinters will go the extra steps beyond the frustration to become expert in their operation in all conditions and that requires dedication and an investment of time, ball and powder.

 

[stinkyfeet]

Good Lord this post has gotten out of hand. I guess I can spark an added debate a cannon fuse shoved into the torch hole/touch hole, would be the most accurate ignition system then. All the shooter needs to do is light aim and wait, when the fuse burns down enough the gun will go bang, no chance of flinching at all. Thats gotta be the most "accurate" ignition system there is. :rotf:

 

[longcruise]

Am beginning to see what your problem is. You think this is a personal discussion.😈 You think this is a "cap guys" vs "flint guys" debate. Well, only on your side of the state line, or is it time zone?😄 my only interest in the discussion is in reading the thoughts of other shooters. Your comments are falling more into the knee jerk category.

ask yourself this; is a given rifle more accurate shot offhand or benched? You know the answer!

ya think that maybe a slower ignition system might accentuate the inevitable tiny degrees of movement?

if you ever attend a match with extensive cap and flint aggregates with both consisting of identical targets, you will see that shooters who enter both will, in the overwhelming percentage, shoot better scores with cap than flint.

 

[George]

OK, the fools part has been amply demonstrated, tell me again about the schooling part. :haha: :haha:

Spence

 

[stinkyfeet]

OK, the fools part has been amply demonstrated, tell me again about the schooling part. :haha: :haha:

Spence

Ohhh thats easy we spanked there butts. No it was teaching them no matter how reliable or superior they think a percussion is you have to keep everything dry for it to work, if not it fails. It doesn't matter flint or percussion moisture means no bang. We took percautions to ensure our guns and powder stayed dry, they did not our guns went bang, its just cooler it was a flinter that they said wouldn't fire in the rain. That was the whole point of the post, not flinters are better than percussions or vice versa. The guys were fools for thinking their percussion guns were waterproof as well as their powder.

 

[longcruise]

Well, my percussion guns are not foolproof, but for some reason they function reliably in all weather.😂

 

[Col. Batguano]

Can somebody please publish some average lock times for the various ignition systems, and even some modern target guns. It seemed to me that a wheel lock was slightly faster than a flint gun, but slower than a percussion gun.

electronic ignition used to be all the rage in the Olympic target shooting community, but largely they have gotten away from them lately

 

[longcruise]

A member here has timed flintlocks under controlled conditions. Not sure if he has timed any cap locks. Goes by screen name"pletch".

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Again, the shooter is the weak link in all shooting accuracy. You are blaming the system for the shooter's faults. It is an irrational conclusion at best. Yes simpleton shooters do better with centerfire guns than with percussion than with flinters and matchlocks. Locked in a vise, no ignition system has an overall marked advantage to accuracy. The only difference is when held by a shooter. Most shooters do better offhand with a percussion than a flint. But that is not because the flint gun is any less accurate when locked in a vise, it is because of the shooter holding the gun. It is not a flint vs perc thing. I am primarily a percussion shooter because my follow through is no longer what it once was. Several of my match guns can be converted between the two and from a bench, there is no discernable difference.

If anything, it is your denial of the human shooter input to the accuracy or lessor accuracy that blinds you to the truth. Yes lock time plays a great deal to better scores, especially in offhand shooting, but only because humans are loading, holding and aiming the guns. Ever notice how many slug guns and bench guns are underhammers. Because the ignition time is even faster than a typical side lock. The SHOOTERS use them to minimize their human errors by every possible means. my best barrel would shoot no less accurately, regardless of ignition system, if held in a machine vise, even ignited with a slow fuse.

Lock times are only relevent to accuracy because of the frailties of the human shooters using them

 

[Grumpa]

As I recall, Paul Vallandigham always maintained that a properly set up flintlock was faster than a cap lock. His arguments are on this Forum.

 

[fleener]

2 tall

I was only commenting on your comment "All the cap does is ignite the main charge nothing more nothing less. It has zero to do with accuracy, is it in the bore, rifling, have anything to do with the patching or ball, nope all it does is ignite the powder."

Not all caps are created equal, or have the same quality control.

Caps or primers can and do impact accuracy.

Fleener

 

[stinkyfeet]

Fleener, I agree not all caps are created equal, and the same is true for quality of flints.

 

[tecum-tha]

But it is hard to influence the "caps".
Probably easier to prime consistent....

 

[M. De Land]

That is simply not true in the context written here.
Fulminate does not have to catch fire from a spark shower and burn.
Hammer impact causes detonation which is then focused directly to the charge through the nipple venturi.
It is a great deal faster especially when "nippled" directly through the barrel wall and not down a flash channel or elbow curve. Mike D.

 

[Larry Pletcher]

A member here has timed flintlocks under controlled conditions. Not sure if he has timed any cap locks. Goes by screen name"pletch".

I planned to stay out of this one, but since my name was mentioned, here goes. With the help of friends and my son, I have timed many flintlocks and slow motion videoed 80+ more at 5000 frames per second. we also timed a Small Siler percussion, and I have a video of a Small Siler percussion, also at 5000 fps.

The Small Siler was timed at .020 sec while the fastest time I recorded for a flint was an original Manton at .0299. (Most of the flintlock times fall between .0350 and .0450 seconds.) The Manton time does not include the vent part of the ignition - that adds another .038 second or so. A good flint setup will take app .070 till the barrel ignites.

The slow motion video of the Siler percussion vs flint is significant. If Paul V. could see the videos compared, he would have to reconsider his comments.

As far as accuracy is concerned, I feel that it requires greater skills to shoot a flint well. A flint ignition gives the shooter more time demonstrate his mistakes. I believe that a master level flint shooter can shoot a percussion well. The opposite may not be true IMHO.

I'm sorry to report that my son and I are still doing a serious upgrade to blackpowdermag.com. Our goal is to be done by the middle of June. The videos mentioned above should be viewable by then.
Regards,
Pletch

 

[vulture]

Hey, can I get in on this? I am not a good shot, was pretty good once years ago but now my hands shake far to bad, sights are all over the target and I have to catch it as it goes by, so....for me the faster the ignition time the better chance I hae at hitting the target. If I have a cheap cap lock with a poor design, then my chances are not so good, but with a well designed system that gives me almost the same ignition time as cartridge guns then I have a fair chance of hitting what I am trying to hit, the same is so with flintlocks. If for any reason the ignition is slowed down then my chances are again reduced, not because I flinch, but just because I can't hold the firearm as steady as I once could, neurological problems, agent orange maybe??? At any rate the fast the ignition the better I do, and for me, and I mean it when I say "for me" it seems that most of my cap locks are faster than my flintlocks, maybe I don't have well tuned flintlocks, maybe they could be made as fast as my cap locks, maybe, maybe, maybe. Not saying a single word about anyone else's shooting capabilities with what ever, just telling you how my world works. Thanks for your time, I will get back on my back row seat now and be a good boy. Stew.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Which supports the fact that lower flint scores are caused by how the human shooter handles the delay.
There is no proof that the gun is not hitting the poa at the time the ball exits the bore. It is that the point of aim at muzzle exit is no longer what the shooter intended but where he has permitted the gun to stray. The gun is still pointed at a place just not necessarily the center of the target.

 

[Col. Batguano]

Thanks for posting this. It's a great help.

By chance, did you happen to time any of the other ignitions systems; wheel lock, match lock snap hance, miquolet, or have them on hand for modern cartridge guns?