Scopes on MLers......again

[tg]

"a gentlemen who countered with the fact that in-lines were first designed in the 1830's and "hardly new technology". But the fact remains, those 1830 vintage in-lines, are a FAR cry from the modern weatherproof/scoped inlines with sabot and pellet of today."

The point needs to be pushed that the ignition style is really not an issue as such in keeping with what the seasons were originaly made for (a step back in technology)it is the sighting and ballistic capabilities equaling centerfires that tips the scales, there is little difference now in many places between the weapons use in regular or ML seasons loading from the front of a modern ML or loading a cartridge from the back of a single shot encore gives you the same terminal results so why a seperate season?

 

[James Rorar]

I did not think about the reallocation of tags. In Ohio we use the same tags for all seasons: bow, shotgun, ML. I realize all states are not like this. I have not been ML hunting long enough to feel that the modern guys hijacked the season. Moderen ML's have always been around in my hunting time. I do agree that a definition of ML hunting may be very helpful. We have very good definitions of our bow hunting equipment (draw weights ect.). As to why not a seperate season, other than the tag issues why not? Scopes I could live without now, but I dont have good eyes now and I am sure the wont get better with time. I know guys take 200 yard shots with them but I think that most shots are under 200 yards here in Ohio. Bottom line as to why I would like to see a seperate season is that I am selfish. I just want more time hunting with my ML. And I thought this might be one way to get it.
James

 

[Osprey]

Bareback, I'm surprised to see this from Nodak - as hard as it is to get a ML tag now. What's it take you guys, like 5-7 years on average to draw one even with it being a fairly primitive season?? I got very lucky a few years ago and drew on my first try as a Non-resident (no, didn't score, did kill a big mulie with my bow). I imagine the same folks crying for scopes are many of the same that hunt from their pickups riding section lines during gun season. :barf:

Have they specificaly mentioned reallocating tags, or is that a guess of what may come? If they keep tags as they are now, opening it for modern scopes will only get more applicants and make it harder to draw a late season ML tag.

By the way, great state! Been out there 5 of the last 6 years, two months at a crack, cooking for a buddy at his guide service (and hunting my butt off). Didn't go this year, but may be out all fall in '08. Got 3 pref points for gun tag, too, hoping to draw and prowl some river bottoms with my flinter in November. :grin:

 

[Dave K]

JimRN, Ohio used to have a "primitive weapon" season in which only muzzleloader styles that were considered standard from the 1800's or early were allowed.These had to have at least a 28" or greater barrel length and a min. cal. of 38 cal. This primitive season also included the crossbows which were not allowed at any other time to hunt with. Then things got changed to muzzleloader season, which included the inline and crossbows were allowed to be used during the archery season. Now, I do know a few quite a few guys who use their inlines during the regular gun season since they feel they are a greater advantage to them then the slug guns. But, then slug guns really got better, so it is probably a moot point now. Bowhunters (shooting bows without triggers, releases were not allowed) had their own season as did traditional muzzleloaders for years until the rules were changed to fit what others were clammering for. I remember when it was technically illegal to use a T/C Renegade, because the min. length of the barrels in those days were 28". I would love to see a traditional season again, but we had it and it was changed to fit those who have handicaps that reguire different eguipment.If you think about it, those that insist on using scopes, say they need to use them to harvest game humanely. Yet, these guys can see well enough to drive to their hunting area. Kind of scary if you think about it, just knowing a blind guy can drive a car at you or since he can't see well, uses the scope to scope YOU out. My eyes are ok, but I don't and won't shoot further than I can clearly see with my sights on it.

 

[dallas10c]

Here in PA we have all three...

early muzzloader season which allows in-lines

regular firearms in which anything goes, centerfire, in-line or sidelock

and my favorite..late traditional/primitive for flintlocks only

The late season is nice but by then the deer have been chased for several months and have mostly gone nocturnal. Also it is cold...todays high was 12 degrees without the wind chill added in.

So far PA has managed to keep everyone relatively happy with seperate seasons but allowing anything to be used during the regular firearms season.

 

[tg]

"..late traditional/primitive for flintlocks only"

is this the "Traditional/primitive" season that TC made that special flintlock designed to shoot modern projectiles or use pellets for?

 

[Walks Alone]

The effect with a 1X scope is much like looking through the wrong end of a pair of binoculars.

Sounds to me like he needs to turn the scope around! I've never looked thru a 1x scope, but that just doesn't sound right. What would the point be of using one. I know there's no magnification with a 1x, but I wouldn't think you'd get the sensation of looking the wrong way in a pair of binos. Could be wrong though, wouldn't be the first time.

Actually, a 1X scope is a great aide to eyes that can no longer clearly align the three elements - rear and front sights, and a target. It's much easier to deal with just a reticle and target. And the 1X has the same very fast target acqisition of open sights. Aperature/peep sights help old eyes some too, but not as much as a 1X scope does.

I'm not condoning using modern scopes on traditional muzzle loaders by any means - just pointing out that a low power fixed scope can certainly help old eyes no matter what type of firearm it is used on.

Yes, one of my TC Hawken barrels (36) wears a scope. It's a 4X 32.5" brass tube with brass block mounts. Works great for longer range ground squirrels and predators. Not as naughty as using a modern scope on it (which I would never do), but probably not very PC either. But then, I don't hunt diggers and preds with PC cops in tow either. :v

 

[jimmy82]

I use a 1x all the time on my govt' issue M-4... never had a problem with "reverse binocular vision" If I were him I would get my money back for the lasic. I think he is experiencing an optical illusion when looking through the scope. He sees the ghost ring of the sight body and his mind wants to shrink everything within the sight. I've never had a problem with a 1x or a holographic sight even without my glasses on (stupid gas mask marksmanship training :v ).

 

[Doe]

Guys.....! Can't we all get along!! :hatsoff: Now, I live in M.I. and we just have muzzy season, there no restricition on what kind and you can just use any powder scope.. I'll hunt along side with any guy that is useing the modern inline with 24 powder scope or higher JUST as long as I can GO :thumbsup:isn't it, just about haveing FUN i know i am :grin: why do we have to be prejudice it seem to me..this is just my opnion... we'er trying to step on each other toes!! Let all get along...and burn some powder :hatsoff:

 

[Claude Mathis]

...isn't it, just about haveing FUN i know i am :grin: why do we have to be prejudice it seem to me..this is just my opnion... we'er trying to step on each other toes!!

The concept of a "muzzleloading only" season was implemented to allow people a chance to hunt with historical style weapons. It wasn't started only to have "fun" or they could have simply extended the regular season and allowed ALL weapons.

Some folks see it as a chance to emulate an historic hunting style, while others see it as just another opportunity to plug a deer. IMHO

 

[barebackjack]

...isn't it, just about haveing FUN i know i am :grin: why do we have to be prejudice it seem to me..this is just my opnion... we'er trying to step on each other toes!!

The concept of a "muzzleloading only" season was implemented to allow people a chance to hunt with historical style weapons. It wasn't started only to have "fun" or they could have simply extended the regular season and allowed ALL weapons.

Some folks see it as a chance to emulate an historic hunting style, while others see it as just another opportunity to plug a deer. IMHO

This is PRECISELY the angle im using in my arguments. Defining the purpose of the season. If it stands to allow a chance to hunt with a more primitive weapon (much like archery only seasons), than technology should be limited (just like in archery seasons), as there is nothing primitive about a weatherproof inline with a high power scope, other than it being a single shot.
If this is not the case, than it might as well be open to any "legal weapon".

And this is the problem in my state. Most "MLers" view the season as just another "open season", they shoot modern, because its just another "open season", and their just out there for one more buck. Its all about the buck. Not about the chance to be afield.
The traditional guys, many of whom are the same people that lobbyed the state some 25-30 years ago to get the season in the first place, see it as a chance to go with primitive weapons, and they do see it as "their season", as many of them are the people that did the legwork to get the season established.
IMO, if we open the floodgates so to speak for MLers, we may as well do it for all seasons.
So for archery season, go ahead and use the device that holds the bow at halfdraw or full draw while you wait for deer, use laser sights, lighted pins, ballistic broadheads. Theres a reason these are NOT legal, but apparently this logic doesnt spill over to MLers.

Im all for "to each his own", and would love to see two MLer seasons, a traditional, and modern, appease everyone, this is highly unlikely. But you have to define why a season exists, and than if need be, put restrictions on it.

Case in point, spring snow goose seasons. They are there for one reason, and one reason only, to reduce the population, hence the liberal regulations and limits. If it was there for another reason, there would most likely be more conservative regulations.

 

[James Rorar]

When I first started hunting during ML season I did see it as just as another season/chance to get a deer. I used a moderen ML. Things changed for me. Back then I only had one moderen ML and used it only for that season. Now I have 4 sidelocks and one of them has three barrells. Now I use them during shotgun season. It may be that the extra chance to get a deer turned me more toward a traditional style of hunting. So for me the "extra chance" deer season opened a whole new way of hunting. The exposure was good.
James

 

[Jumpshot]

The inline was designed as nothing more than a way to circumvent the rules and improve the chances of success in a primitive season, thereby taking unfair advantage of the rules. Although some are afraid to come out and say it, it was designed to cheat, not to be a stepping stone to get people interested in shooting more primitive guns. Constantly using that notion in their defense is nothing more than a way to side-step the point and continue justifying their use in a season not created for them.

If people really want an extra chance to get a deer in the muzzleloading season, why can't they just get a percussion sidelock muzzleloader and do it? Is that not why the season was created?

 

[XXX]

The inline was designed as nothing more than a way to circumvent the rules and improve the chances of success in a primitive season, thereby taking unfair advantage of the rules.

I think more precisely, the inline was designed by the gun makers to make them money by appealing to the mass of hunters who want an extra chance at a deer but do not want to put any effort into mastering a primitive weapon. In attempting to do this, the inline complied with the letter of the law, but not the spirit.

 

[XXX]

[
..So for archery season, go ahead and use the device that holds the bow at halfdraw or full draw while you wait for deer, use laser sights, lighted pins, ballistic broadheads. Theres a reason these are NOT legal, but apparently this logic doesnt spill over to MLers.

This is exactly what is occuring now with the crossbow. The industry is lobbying to have these allowed in archery seasons or better yet, as a seperate season. Why? So they can sell more crossbows.

 

[XXX]

Im all for "to each his own", and would love to see two MLer seasons, a traditional, and modern, appease everyone, this is highly unlikely. But you have to define why a season exists, and than if need be, put restrictions on it.

I'm beginning to wonder if the Kentucky approach may be a better idea. Rather than a blanket special weapons season, they have reserved a section of public land in Daniel Boone National Forest as "pioneer weapons' only. I understand it is under utilized. Perhaps we should lobby the feds to set aside primitive weapons only areas in all of the National Forests? An easy way to do that would be to declare all NF designated wilderness areas as primitive only. The administrative boundaries for these wilderness areas are already defined, marked, and mapped. NF rangers are in place to enforce these restrictions and we can even piggyback on the lobbying efforts of various conservation organizations that are seeking to have new NF wilderness areas established. Since one of the main restrictions in these wilderness areas is the prohibition of motorized vehicles, including 4 wheelers, we could count on some nice lonely hunting.

 

[James Rorar]

Jumpshot, they are not cheating, it is very legal. They dont need a defense. While I may think it unfair as to their equipment, I always jump at the chance to convert them to a more traditional method of hunting by example, not force. Having a traditional only ML season would mean they would have to get a sidelock and learn how to use it to participate in the season. I know that many dont agree but in my opinion most of the non traditional hunters would get sidelocks so they could go during the traditional ML season. Just my opinion.
James

 

[Jumpshot]

Jumpshot, they are not cheating, it is very legal.

I know it's legal, I didn't say that. You're putting what I said
in a different context to make it sound like I said something else.

...convert them to a more traditional method of hunting by example, not force.

Who is forcing them to hunt in the muzzleloading season? Last time
I checked, it was optional.

Having a traditional only ML season would mean they would have to get a sidelock and learn how to use it to participate in the season.

No way! Imagine that. I guess if I want to drive, I'll have
to get a car and (horrors!!) learn to drive it!!!

I don't know what I was thinking. I thought that's what
the muzzleloading season was created for.

 

[James Rorar]

You did say "designed to cheat". What did you mean? As far as forcing them to use a muzzle loader, they cant use center fire. As far as a traditional ML season, I still think that limiting them to side lock and round ball would lead to more people trying traditional ML hunting and it might catch on. Many hunters take a more modern approach because it is easier. A seperate traditional season might lead to more exposure. Many people may use it as just more time to hunt, but is that not OK?
James

 

[Jumpshot]

Are you arguing in favor of restricting inlines, or allowing them, or creating a separate season for traditional guns, or a separate season for inlines, or...? Trying to figure out what your position is on this.

Regarding them being designed to cheat, that's exactly what I meant. I don't know how to make it any more clear than I already did...

The inline was designed as nothing more than a way to circumvent the rules and improve the chances of success in a primitive season, thereby taking unfair advantage of the rules. Although some are afraid to come out and say it, it was designed to cheat...

The inline was designed to get around the rules. It defeats the purpose of the season. Hunters using inlines successfully hijacked the season and it appears none of the F&G departments are willing to undo it because the dollar $ign$ in their eyes mean more to them than the original intent of their own regulations.