Scottish Dirk

[NeilMacleod]

Anybody have any experience with the blade offered by TrackOTW ?
Was thinking making one from a file, but if this blade is any good I could save some time. Made in India.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/454/1/BLADE-DIRK-S

 

[Artificer]

First off, no I don't have experience with that blade and at least it says it is forged. (I purchased a different one many years ago from TOW with a cast blade that could not be hardened/annealed. Had I known that, I would never have bought it, but found out too late to return it.)

OK, there is a LOT of bad information on Scottish Dirk Blades out there and unfortunately the shape of this blade is NOT correct until very late 19th century/20th century. Unfortunately Sutlers have been selling knives with blades like this since the mid to late 1970's supposedly "as issued to Scottish Soldiers during the AWI." They didn't issue Dirks, they issued Basket Hilt Backswords. Though Highlanders were authorized to wear Dirks; Officers and Enlisted Men were responsible to buy and provide their own Dirks, because they were considered personal weapons.

(The remarkable thing is the Basket Hilt Backsword they have been selling since about the same time REALLY IS a fair copy of the original ones issued to the Scottish Regiments here in the AWI, but they never used them here during the AWI, except for ceremonies and perhaps Guard Mounts in Garrison. BTW, there was an Original One on display at the Old Yorktown Victory Center for many years, but have not yet been to the new one to see if it is still on display.)

Though Dirk Blades grew shorter from the 17th century through the 18th and into the early 19th century, they remained the characteristic tapered triangular shape.

I really hope this forum allows this link, because this is an extremely good article on how the Scottish Dirk developed from the Ballock Knife to the fully developed form. http://myarmoury.com/feature_spot_dirks.html

Here are links to some 18th century Dirks: https://www.invaluable.com/auction...-18th-century-scottish-dirk,-77-c-a1045738ce#
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb...0013/lot-9503d076-a838-4c22-899e-a62c0106b727

https://www.invaluable.co.uk/auction-lot/a-mid-18th-century-scottish-dirk,-39cm-fullered-b-81-c-55240bb8ee

https://www.invaluable.co.uk/auction-lot/a-mid-to-late-18th-century-scottish-dirk,-33.5cm-78-c-b7746e2b07

"Dinna lissen tae a Sassenatch, wha kens not a true Biodag of Holy Iron."

Gus

 

[NeilMacleod]

Thanks!
"My Armoury" was the first article I read since I wanted to see what the true form is. Wasent happy the way the Tang looked on the one from TOTW, so from the chart have to see what one would be appropriate.
Interestingly enough "Forged in Fire show" tonight supposed to be making a Dirk so curious to see what they say about it.

 

[Artificer]

That is a very astute observation about the tang on the TOW blade not being correct. The real tangs were like sword tangs, that while being tapered down going to the rear before the threads, were more robust to handle shock in use. The tangs would have been closer to those on a wide/tapered file tang, though even more robust than that until just before the threads.

I searched for a very long time trying to find a correctly shaped "ready made" 18th century Dirk blade, but by the time I found a couple makers in Scotland who were still making them that way, the Dirk blades were outlawed once again.

Gus

 

[Elnathan]

Some/a lot of early dirks tend to have a very thick spine with a pronounced triangular cross-section. I think you will find that a file is too small for anything but a very wee dirk. You'd probably be better off starting with something like a 1/4"-5/16" piece of stock or (better yet) forging from a bar.

Another thing to be aware of is that the hilts on historical examples are usually tiny - 3 1/2-4 1/2" overall seems pretty usual. They are designed so that the haunches are gripped, not just the middle section. Since we are not allowed to link to other forums, I've lifted a picture off the myarmoury forums:

The dirk is a repro with a 4" hilt closely copied from an original by Vince Evans, the hand belongs to a gentleman by the name of Thomas MacDonald.

Modern reproductions, especially commercial ones, tend to have vastly oversized handles that really ruin the proportions.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Modern reproductions, especially commercial ones, tend to have vastly oversized handles that really ruin the proportions.

Interesting comment, especially, to my eye, that handle looks dangerously undersized for the hand that is holding it.

 

[MacRob46]

You can always buy a well-made and correctly shaped dirk from Vince Evans (I have one of his), Glenn McClain or Mike McRae.

The blades from TOW do appear to be forged but they were not always and, in fact, at one time they offered a rough cast version. So I cannot say that for certain. The tangs are stamped "India." I have a couple of them laying in a box in my workshop. The shape is not good at all and so I would say that the blade "resembles" that of a dirk but that's all. I have a dirk I assembled many years ago from a cast dirk blade which looks much better than the TOW blade. I used the same furniture TOW sells to complete it, with a plain walnut handle. I also got a very nice dirk blade a number of years ago from Museum Replicas. It was part of an order of dirk blades (theirs really don't look like dirk blades) and I think I got this one in error.

 

[MacRob46]

The grips on antique dirks were pretty small compared to modern day knives, for reasons I do not know.

 

[Artificer]

Some/a lot of early dirks tend to have a very thick spine with a pronounced triangular cross-section. I think you will find that a file is too small for anything but a very wee dirk. You'd probably be better off starting with something like a 1/4"-5/16" piece of stock or (better yet) forging from a bar.

Indeed, tangs had to be more robust like a smaller version of a sword tang, as I mentioned. I agree most files would not make a good blade as they are not thick enough nor have a large enough tang, though a worn-out/large flat rasp would work well for stock removal of the blade (if one has the right equipment, which probably most of us don't) or better still for forging the tapered flat sided blade.

Another thing to be aware of is that the hilts on historical examples are usually tiny - 3 1/2-4 1/2" overall seems pretty usual. They are designed so that the haunches are gripped, not just the middle section. Since we are not allowed to link to other forums, I've lifted a picture off the myarmoury forums:

The dirk is a repro with a 4" hilt closely copied from an original by Vince Evans, the hand belongs to a gentleman by the name of Thomas MacDonald.

Modern reproductions, especially commercial ones, tend to have vastly oversized handles that really ruin the proportions.

GREAT Photo!!

Good point on the lengths of the original hilts. Of course period Scots in the 17th/18th century averaged smaller hands, than modern people, as well. This is why a modern repro grip should be tailored to the modern hand, though still while being gripped in the traditional manner.

Gus

 

[Elnathan]

Believe it or not, Gus, I think that the pictured hilt has been enlarged for modern hands - the original has a 3 1/2" hilt! 4" is still within the range of originals, though.

Rifleman1776,

I don't own one, so I can't say from experience, but I believe I've read that dirk hilts of historic size are quite comfortable and secure in the hand, despite appearance to the contrary. In case you aren't aware, there is a similar issue with European swords from the early medieval period, aka "Viking swords" - the grips are often quite short and would be difficult if not downright painful to use in the obvious fashion. Since it is unlikely that the vikings had significantly smaller hands than modern folks, it appears that they held the swords rather differently than we would expect.

One could make the same argument with a lot of original muzzleloaders, as a matter of fact...

 

[NeilMacleod]

That looks dangerous in the picture, I can see a hand slipping when thrusting into a hard object. My hands are med size in general 3.4" across my knuckles.

Some/a lot of early dirks tend to have a very thick spine with a pronounced triangular cross-section. I think you will find that a file is too small for anything but a very wee dirk. You'd probably be better off starting with something like a 1/4"-5/16" piece of stock or (better yet) forging from a bar.

Another thing to be aware of is that the hilts on historical examples are usually tiny - 3 1/2-4 1/2" overall seems pretty usual. They are designed so that the haunches are gripped, not just the middle section. Since we are not allowed to link to other forums, I've lifted a picture off the myarmoury forums:

The dirk is a repro with a 4" hilt closely copied from an original by Vince Evans, the hand belongs to a gentleman by the name of Thomas MacDonald.

Modern reproductions, especially commercial ones, tend to have vastly oversized handles that really ruin the proportions.

 

[NeilMacleod]

This is nice way..
http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.ca/2011/11/early-dudgeon-dagger-by-glenn-mcclain.html

 

[MacRob46]

Believe it or not, Gus, I think that the pictured hilt has been enlarged for modern hands - the original has a 3 1/2" hilt! 4" is still within the range of originals, though.

Rifleman1776,

I don't own one, so I can't say from experience, but I believe I've read that dirk hilts of historic size are quite comfortable and secure in the hand, despite appearance to the contrary. In case you aren't aware, there is a similar issue with European swords from the early medieval period, aka "Viking swords" - the grips are often quite short and would be difficult if not downright painful to use in the obvious fashion. Since it is unlikely that the vikings had significantly smaller hands than modern folks, it appears that they held the swords rather differently than we would expect.

One could make the same argument with a lot of original muzzleloaders, as a matter of fact...

Vince seems to stick to the dimensions of the originals. He has been to Scotland where he was allowed to examine and measure a number of originals. The dirk he made for me does have the historically correctly-sized grip and, while it feels somewhat small in my hand, it is not difficult to grasp. I agree that the ancients did not necessarily have small hands.

 

[NeilMacleod]

They sure do look short, strange, Vince Evans Dirk, posted in MyArmoury

 

[crockett]

One other thing, when I read "carbon steel" and nothing more. I see that as a red flag. I assume low carbon and poor quality. If it is high carbon and good quality the seller will state it.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I have no expertise on this subject at all other than knowing all knives are supposed to be sharp and keeping hands away from the cutting edge is paramount in safety. But, that style knife, other than looking proper on dress of the period is, IMHO, a pretty useless item.

 

[Rifleman1776]

One other thing, when I read "carbon steel" and nothing more. I see that as a red flag. I assume low carbon and poor quality. If it is high carbon and good quality the seller will state it.

Assuming can lead to false conclusions. I do woodturning. A number of years ago I bought several turning tools at an estate sale for $5.00 each. They look ancient and are marked only as "cast steel". I haven't a clue what the composition actually is. But, I do know they are my best tools and outperform my $80 to $100 so-called 'good' tools.

 

[NeilMacleod]

From yesterdays Forged in Fire Competition.
This is what the contestants had to make.

 

[Artificer]

I have no expertise on this subject at all other than knowing all knives are supposed to be sharp and keeping hands away from the cutting edge is paramount in safety. But, that style knife, other than looking proper on dress of the period is, IMHO, a pretty useless item.

As any kind of "general purpose knife," I have to agree they are useless. However, they were designed solely as fighting knives and for that purpose, they were very good knives for their intended use.

Though certainly there were not as many men who carried them constantly as seen in modern films and TV shows; Highland Men-at-Arms, and Clansmen who fought to protect from or do cattle raids and inter Clan warfare, used them effectively and especially poorer Clansmen who could not afford a Basket Hilt Sword or were not "issued" one by their Clan Lairds or lesser Chieftains. I doubt the average Highland Scot would think twice about a man armed with just a Dirk for personal protection.

Scottish Highlanders used other knives for Hunting and more mundane uses. "Gralloch" or stalking/hunting knives were not that different in the period than other hunting knives, though there are some engravings of large ones that look remarkably like what many people consider a "Rifleman's Knife."

Gus

 

[Artificer]

From yesterdays Forged in Fire Competition.
This is what the contestants had to make.

Is that a close up of the one owned by one of the Judges and used as a example for the smiths to make?

Gus