Scottish Dirk

[Artificer]

One other thing, when I read "carbon steel" and nothing more. I see that as a red flag. I assume low carbon and poor quality. If it is high carbon and good quality the seller will state it.

Maybe that is because they never know how good or bad the blades will be when they get them from India? Yes, I know good blades can be made in India, but for the price of the TOW blade, I have to admit I would be skeptical as well.

Gus

 

[NeilMacleod]

"Is that a close up of the one owned by one of the Judges and used as a example for the smiths to make?

Gus "

Yes.

 

[Artificer]

Thank you. I watched the episode last night, thanks to your mentioning it beforehand.

Have to admit the photography on TV gave me an incorrect idea of the shape of the short “back edge” near the point. I couldn’t tell if it was straight or rounded, but now see it is rounded down to the point.

I like the “Jinking” on the back edge of the blade and that is well done. (Jinking was a common name for the file work done on the back edge of a knife.)

I have no idea where the inspiration for the holes in the fuller came from, if those are indeed holes. If those holes go through the blade, they would be a PITA to keep rust out of them and I see no purpose for them nor any historic precedence for them.

Not all Dirks had the fancy “celtic knot” carving on the handle wood, but I was kind of surprised this knife didn’t have it.

The cutting tests and especially when they hammered the blades through the metal drums showed the importance of having strong tangs.

That got me to thinking of two instances where I have personally seen failure of the grip; once in a large “Rifleman’s Knife” made in the late 1960’s that I own and once in a M1850 foot Officers Sword I own with a REAL “combat blade” and not one of the modern “Toy” Swords.

Gus

 

[NeilMacleod]

It was an eye opener, the TOTW blade tang would not of held up to that. funny the Scotch/Irish guy totally messed up the knife and made a different shape lol.

 

[Elnathan]

I have no idea where the inspiration for the holes in the fuller came from, if those are indeed holes. If those holes go through the blade, they would be a PITA to keep rust out of them and I see no purpose for them nor any historic precedence for them.

From the Dirk Files:

Jacobite era according to the title. Don't recall where I got it from, alas. Definitely not the one I'd choose to recreate, though. Bleh.

Lot of really odd dirks out there.

 

[Zonie]

About the only thing I know about dirk's is what I read in the first link Artificer posted above.

That said, the example of a dirk used on the TV show doesn't seem to be correct to me.
Although the back or top edge does start out in a triangular shape at the tip, it quickly loses it and it seems to have more of a Bowie knife appearance.

 

[hawkeye2]

"(Jinking was a common name for the file work done on the back edge of a knife.)"

Jimping: Notches or filework down the spine of a blade created to provide grip on a knife beyond the bolster. :v

 

[Artificer]

Well, under the heading of "never say never.... on holes drilled in the fuller"

Of all the Dirks I've seen in my or other books, from museums, from the British Museum on line, CW museum on line, etc., etc....... that's the first one I've ever seen. Thank you.

Hawkeye2,
Yep, you have it. Geesh, a stitching horse slipped my mind a few days ago and now this.... got to take my memory pills.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

My apology to the OP for going off topic here, but wanted to address that Scots indeed had knives better designed for hunting and other uses in the period.

Of course I now can't find one image from a book photo of a set of Gralloch (hunting) knives that included a cleaver along with other knives and particularly one knife many people of around our age would recognize as a "Rifleman's knife" from the 1970's.

However, I did manage to find this image again that shows three Gralloch (hunting) knives from left to right before the Sgian Achlais (many ways to spell that) on the right and these knives would have been common in the 18th century in Scotland.

Thought you may find the one of the far left especially interesting.....
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/fb/3e/f9/fb3ef9333e4964175c60d8727b37091d--th-century-celtic.jpg

Gus

 

[Sunkmanitu Tanka]

Very nice find! Thanks!

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Well the Paul Chen Hanwei Scottish Dirk at least has the right blade shape, but I don't know if the handle is too long or not.....,

Lots of "Scottish Dirk Blade Blanks" for sale out there, some even in Damascus steel, but..., modern blade shape, all of them, that I found.

An "Arkansas Toothpick" Blade Blank is a triangle, but in the cross section it's a diamond ...., I don't know if that is what's wanted or if it could be "worked" into the right cross section.

12" blade blank so this another one but may simply be the same blank from another distributor, don't know if the blade shape is the "proper" triangle that might be wanted.

:idunno:

LD

 

[Rifleman1776]

An "Arkansas Toothpick" Blade Blank is a triangle, but in the cross section it's a diamond ....

That is my image of the AT. But, the infamous Bowie, in it's many iterations is also often called an Arkansas Toothpick. I prefer we not get hung up on terminology. Personally, I'm just happy Arkansas gets so much recognition for it's knife history.

 

[NeilMacleod]

The Arkansas Toothpick is something I looked at some time ago and is more appealing then the other blanks, just have to shorten the tang.
The Gralloch looks like they just shifted the tang up and extended the handle from the regular Dirk.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Someone mentioned short handles.
The idea was that it would lock in your hand for a firm grip.
usually held point down in left hand if sword in the right. along with targe on left arm.
I made a couple a long time ago from buggy spring.
Used one as my "second shot" when hunting with flintlock. Only had to use it twice.

Richard.

 

[Artificer]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for taking the time and trouble to look those up. I do appreciate it.

First on the Arkansas toothpick blades and as you probably thought, the diamond cross section of the blade is not correct for a true Scottish Dirk. In cross section, it should be either flat ground from the back of the blade to the edge on both sides of the blade or a sort of a rounded edge/flattened hexagon shape like a double edge sword blade. The latter as some dirks were made from sword blades (though by far most were not made from old sword blades).

Second thing on the Arkansas Toothpick blades, that tang is way too small/skinny to make a serviceable "using" knife. So it is not worth the effort to re-grind the blade.

You are correct the Paul Chen Hanwei Scottish Dirk does have the correct blade shape, but I don't know if tang is sturdy enough for use. I have never owned a Paul Chen Hanwei product, though I have heard some good things about them. If the blade has a good tang, I would not mind making a shorter grip, from scratch if necessary.

To give you an idea of what I want, back in the early 1980's, I needed an Officer's M1850 Foot Officer's Sword for reenacting. I have an Original that is the "Family Sword" presented to my ancestor during the War, but I only wore that at some living histories and ceremonies. I had hand sewed a proper leather scabbard for it and took the original brass fittings off the crude, non period replacement scabbard - to use on the newly made leather scabbard. However, I did not want to risk damage to the original sword or brass fittings that could come from reenacting.

As you know, even though the Modern Marine NCO sword is "somewhat" copied from the Model 1850, it is far from the "real thing."

Back in the early 1980's, I came across an Original Model 1850 separate sword blade, that had never been mounted into a sword. These had been found in storage and as "the story went" these blades were made in the 1880's through maybe the very early 20th century for Marine NCO swords. The great thing about the blade was it was made as a fully serviceable combat blade and virtually identical to Original WBTS sword blades.

So I bought that blade, found original brass grip parts and scabbard parts, made the leather "washer" that goes between the sword blade and brass guard, sewed the leather part of the scabbard and assembled the scabbard. I also found an original NOS, un-mounted wood grip and wrapped it in the proper leather and twisted brass wire. When it was finished, I had in effect, the equivalent of an original sword.

Now of course there is no way I would ever even hope to find an original Scottish Dirk Blade, but I am looking for a repro blade that would be the equivalent. I realize I can have an excellent repro complete dirk made, but would like to get a proper blade only, or if not, then I will make a repro blade myself.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

The Arkansas Toothpick is something I looked at some time ago and is more appealing then the other blanks, just have to shorten the tang.
The Gralloch looks like they just shifted the tang up and extended the handle from the regular Dirk.

From what I understand, that knife is not a Gralloch (hunting) knife, but rather a Sgian Achlais or "Arm pit" Dagger. (Other spellings for the Scottish Gaelic I've come across include but are not limited to Acheles, Ochles, Occles etc.)

From what I have read, no one has ever fully identified an original Sgian Achlais or Arm Pit dagger, but the repro in the photo you show is a copy of the one in the link I provided on the far right and is identified that way. I can't remember if the original knife is in the Scottish National Museum or the British Museum, but many years ago I found it in one of their online catalogues.

Also as I understand it, no one is completely sure how the Arm Pit Daggers were carried concealed under the arm, though there is a lot of speculation.

Part of the reason I have heard that not a whole lot is known of Arm Pit Daggers is they seem to have a shady/dark past and in at least some cases were considered an Assassin's Weapon. This because in the period it was considered "polite" when members of different Clans met, they would leave their pistols, swords and dirks outside with other of their own Clansmen and inside they would lay their Sgian Dubh's (small all purpose knives or stocking knives) on the table between them to show good faith they were not armed. However, a Sgian Acheles could be concealed and used for good or bad purposes in such meetings... Now, this whole paragraph is only speculation taken from very old stories, but I cannot document it.

Since I was never interested in making or having a Sgian Achlais, that is about all I have read on them.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Someone mentioned short handles.
The idea was that it would lock in your hand for a firm grip.
usually held point down in left hand if sword in the right. along with targe on left arm.
I made a couple a long time ago from buggy spring.
Used one as my "second shot" when hunting with flintlock. Only had to use it twice.

Richard.

Hi Richard,

It has been said as the use of the Targe (round shield) lessened and finally abandoned after the Battle of Culloden, the Dirks got shorter, because they no longer had to be long enough to stick out from the diameter of the Targe.

Gus

 

[NeilMacleod]

Some interesting info on here, shows some museum pieces picture, just pause the video. Interesting knickname, I can see why by the handle lol.

https://youtu.be/SrTa0K7fK7U

 

[NeilMacleod]

SOme nice info here on the Armpit Knife mythos.
http://www.gaelicthemes.net/index.php/articles/3-the-history-of-sgian-dubh

The Sgian Dubh shape actually looks like a mini version of the Dirk.

 

[Artificer]

Until the mid/late 19th century when table knives and forks became at least somewhat common, most Scots carried a small "all purpose knife," that could be used for cutting meat and vegetables when eating or for other tasks. This included women, who carried them in an inner pocket that was attached to an inner skirt. It was accessible through a slit in their outer skirt. It was not "hidden for a nefarious purpose," that was just the way women carried small items.

Throughout the 18th century when you visited someone else and that included here in the Colonies, for all but the upper classes; you were expected to bring your own knife (and normally a fork, if one used them). Spoons may or may not have been available in lower class homes for use by visitors, but a fair number of households had an extra wooden or horn spoon that could be loaned for visitors. Many people thought nothing of eating with their hands, alone.

Gus