SEEKING: English long gun advice

[prairiesand]

I have just about all of the parts for this: W.Jacot LONDON, percussion fowling piece.
There is no date stamped.
I was advised at one time that this was probably an "apprentice gun", as it lacked a lot of the details that a Master would have included.
The barrel is 48 inches, with a bore of 5/8" probably a 12 gauge =/- and the octagon transitions to round with a wedding ring detail. The lock has minor engravings that again I am told was consistent with the work of an apprentice. I do not have the Hammer, but the rest of the lock is intact, minus a couple of springs.
The stock forearm is in shards, however I glued it back together to create a pattern for the pantograph. I have a stock-maker close by my home.

MY QUESTIONS for discussion:

Does anyone have a similar gun that could provide intact photos of the hammer detail?
Considering the fact that the stock will be new wood, should the metal bits be restored to their as new condition, with all the scars removed, or is it better to retain as much of the original "patination" as possible.
Will it look dumb or mismatched to see new wood and old metal?
Should I attempt to distress the stock to a matching point?
Should I attempt repairs to the old stock, considering that the forearm is in 10 or 12 shards of bigger bits and much of the off side is actually missing?
Should I bring the metal and wooden parts to some " Happy Medium"?

 

[prairiesand]

Thanks for all your help and interest, By the way!!!

Brent

 

[nhmoose]

At 5/8 [.625] inch bore it is a Twenty gauge not a 12. I would replace just the fore arm and clean the rest but leave all the marks. Try and match the wear on the new for end. But that is just MHO

 

[Britsmoothy]

Can't help afraid except 5/8' is a large 20g.

 

[tenngun]

I expect to get booed for this.
Opinion are like parts of our anatomy that we share and all stink. So here’s my stinker and why I think it.
It’s not a great historic arm, it’s a plain working tool, a carpenters hammer except this shoots.
It does not look like it could be returned to shooting condition.
I would do what I could to make it look new.
Clean up the metal. Refinish the wood and repair where appropriate, get a new hammer clean the barrel, make it look at least like it could fire. There is no outstanding value to be lost
In my opinion.

 

[Buckskinn]

I kind of agree with Tenngun, there are better projects out there. I have a similar relic that has been in my family in the corner of the basement for decades. Considered rebuilding, but when I realized the value decided on cleaning it up and modest repairs for a wall hanger. The only issue I had was I used ring shanked nails for mounting it to the wall, so it will be there forever!!!!

Of course if your gun has significant meaning or interest to you go for it...

 

[prairiesand]

as an up-date after all your input I have decided to re-do this gun so it pulls off the wall just like my Dad's 1950's Wingmaster. It is worn, but still well oiled and quite serviceable. I believe that I will get it this old girl shooting again. Dixie gun works has 1 7/8 hammers available, and I ordered some spring stock to make a couple of flat springs for the locks.
Tenngun has the right idea in my mind.

THE ASTONISHING REVELATION from this thread is that I have lived these 65 years and believed FIRMLY that 20 gauge was a new thing. There was 12 gauge and 16 gauge in the old days but 20 gauge was a recent development.
I learned something today, and this evidence substantiates the fact that 20 gauge was a THING in the old days....like 1830 or 1850...whenever W. Jacot was making firearms in London.

 

[rich pierce]

It has nothing to do with master versus apprentice. It is a gun quickly and inexpensively made in a shop that likely had many workmen. As noted above it has little value other than as a wall hanger for decoration or ambience. I’m not sure I’d do restoration work on it unless it’s for practice.

 

[Rudyard]

While the above comment is honest & fair it is still a ' document' in its humble way. it evidently was flintlock late sort of New England militia export lock, If I had it I would restore the stock but not try to make it like new just a beater that's seen a lot of use . Wont be worth much but still a part of gun history .
Rudyard

 

[DUNKS]

Quite a few have beaten me to it .As with dogs and vehicles there is a time to let go. I know you are across the big pond but the interest in old muzzle loaders here in the UK is failing. Due perhaps to the shortage of gunsmiths and expense. Lots of lovely old cabinet queens for sale at give away prices.

 

[Many Klatch]

On the other hand. We are all stuck at home with the Virus thingy going around. You can either watch TV, work remotely or fix a gun. I vote to fix the gun. You will learn new life skills, the gun will be fun to shoot and you will have bragging rights. It's your gun, who cares if it's worth anything to anybody else. I really enjoy, taking a beater to a match and beating people shooting more expensive guns. The 20 gauge will be fun to shoot and you will be surprised at how light it is to carry.

 

[DUNKS]

You have a very valid point my friend.

 

[Onojutta]

If the gun has meaning to you, I say go for it. Just manage your expectations. My very first gun was an old Sears Model 200 pump shotgun I bought used for less than $70 when I was in high school to go dove hunting with my best friend and his dad. It was old then and it's even older now and will probably never be worth more than I paid for it. But I can't bring myself to part with it because it's responsible for so many memories. I still cherish that gun and treat it as meticulously as all my others, and just last year I took it all apart and gave it a deep cleaning. As Rudyard and DUNKS pointed out these old guns are a dying breed so just keeping it alive for posterity has worth.
I don't know what your skill level is at gun work but if nothing else it would be good practice for your next project.

 

[TFoley]

USA? Fix up an old antique gun and go shoot it in good health. Documentation? What documentation? This is the USA..

UK? Fix up an old antique gun and go shoot it. Documentation? Well, actually, officer, I don't have any, y'see, it's been in my family since Queen Victoria's coronation and.....

You are arrestified and charged with the illegal possession of a live-firing firearm.

Don't shoot it? That's good, it's an antique firearm. Shoot it? Criminal offence attracting up to five years pokey.

This is the UK, and probably why so many older guns, often of some merit, are being allowed to disappear into the scrap piles of history.

 

[DUNKS]

Only just got into antique muzzle loading and although we in the UK have some potty laws I find the one on antique shotguns absolutely crazy. I have just acquired a percussion muzzle loading shotgun. Made in 1840 gun is in perfect condition and obviously not much used. OK it's proof is only black powder, but with a decent load it's just as deadly as a modern shotgun which I need a certificate for. The percussion gun needs no documentation at all. AS LONG AS I PROMISE NOT TO SHOOT IT! I could hang it on the wall.
As Mr Foley said!

 

[Sparkitoff]

I am an English-trained gunmaker. I've apprenticed with "the best" and worked with many of the English Gunmakers that are here in the USA including; Tate, Lee, Merrington, Hutton and others. I spent 25- years with English guns until retiring. From the two photos I don't see anything "English" about it. Maybe it says "London" but it seems in the best case scenario is would be a Birmingham gun. Apprentices were occasionally allowed to engrave border or scroll. That is some kind of chicken scratch. There should be proof marks or at least a load marker. That trigger for the alleged era of production does not resemble anything I can point to. I've only seen those two photos. First, I'm not denouncing your gun - just stating observation without reservation. Second - There were Spanish guns marked "London" as well as some other origins. Third - The barrels are the key to restoration. You can replicate the wood, rebuild or create new locks and restore the trigger mechanism. Without sound barrels, you're still left with something that is either unsafe, lacks performance or is of low value. Get the barrels checked for wall thickness and deficiencies before investing anything else if you are trying to create a shooter. I am all for restorations. With this project there is a substantial cost without any return on investment. Ultimately you may have a beautiful wall-hanger. There's nothing wrong with that but you need to have realistic expectations of cost, and final outcome. Best of luck!

 

[Rudyard]

T Foley & Dunks are correct But I don't quite follow Sparkitoffs reasoning . Yes the gun is no prize but its what it is, Certainly it dosnt warrant any great expenditure and yes the barrel if duff makes it useless to shoot . But its still an example of what it is . The' engraveing' like as not was stamped . looks like typical New England militia lock ex Brum wherever. I bought two from a man on London called Dyer 6 pounds each. My first flint rifle used up one but it was well hardened & sparked fine it just had LONDON stamped on it .. I see your angle re BEST market its as much you didn't mention Lynton McKenzie. He was lured to the US some New Orleans grand plan .Not sure how it panned out but knew Lynton from MLAGB & oft met at Friendship a wonderfull man, great knowledge & skill . The post number 1 shows a very English looking gun ,( The double isn't clear enough to say but could be anything ).. All I can say is I would restore it for old sakes sake & not consider its monetary value in which regard & as to safety I fully agree with your assessment
Regards Rudyard
Self taught if fairly versatile & prolific English Gunmaker .Well one of my guns resides in the RA at Leeds they like it .