Semi-custom rifle?

[pepperbelly]

How hard is it to build one of the kits sold by TOTW or Pecatonica River?
Their prices for their kits are so low I figure it must be tough.

Jim

 

[paulvallandigham]

The wood is left "Proud", with the extra wood so that you can finish the shaping of the stock to your own liking. Not everyone is any good with files, or planes. For them, these kits would be the wrong thing to buy.

The other metal parts are usually just castings, and must be filed and sanded to required finish, and then fitted to the wood. This includes the sideplate, the buttplate, the toe plate, the Trigger guard( the trigger(s)) the escutcheons, if any, the pipes, and the muzzle cap.

Scrowl down to the Gun Builder's Bench thread here, and go through Mike Brook's Photo tutorial to better understand all the work involved, and the parts I have named. The castings will be rough, and will usually have "tabs" that need to be cut, and filed away for fitting the parts to the stock. However, some tabs, such as those on many trigger guards are intentionally left so they can be inletted into the wood to hold a cross pin through the stock to mount the part to the gun. So, don't get in a hurry to file off things until you know more about that part, and how its to be attached.

The kits mainly give you a pre-carved stock, inletted for the barrel, and sometimes the breechplug, and the ramrod. Pecatonica will inlet the lock you choose for an additional charge, too, but the whole idea of the kits is to leave you most of the work to do. If you can't do the work, hire a gun maker to do it for you, or look for a more complete "gun ", such as an " in-the-white" gun from Tip Curtiss, or Track of the Wolf, and others.

I can assure you that these kits will give a new builder plenty of challenges, but also great satisfaction at the end result. But they are also like smoking cigarettes or sex- they are addictive, and you won't want to stop at just one. :wink: :thumbsup:

 

[oldarmy]

How hard is it to build one of the kits sold by TOTW or Pecatonica River?
Their prices for their kits are so low I figure it must be tough.

Jim

Well,
Now you are coming around. :thumbsup:
I started with a TC flintlock.. Nice weapon.. Just like Round ball said.. worked great, nice quick ignition.
Had some questions about using it... Found this forum. Next thing you know I am "rolling my own" :hmm:
They aren't easy to build, but..
There is simply nothing like owning and shooting a "custom made gun"
With today's economy you should be able to find a nice weapon for under 1k..
100% American made with American made parts..
That counts in my book.
Get GREAT WOOD and a SWAMPED barrel.. Also a high quality lock.
Rather then send money overseas..spend it here.
I know a couple of places that will build you a nice gun for not much more then a TC or top grade Pedersoli.

 

[nchawkeye]

pepper...Just take you time with the build and it will be fine...

I built one back in the 80s...It took me 200 hours and 2 years to finish but I'm still using it and she shoots great...

Now, this was no kit...No dovetails on the barrel...The barrel had been inlet and the ramrod drilled...It's much easier 20 years later to buy a good "kit"...

Today you have more resources to fall back on...All I had was a Foxfire 5, Hershel House's original tape and instruction book and a custom made flintlock I had bought 12 years before...

 

[J.D.]

I swear! I have no idea what a "semi custom" rifle is. If you order a rifle built to your lop, style, material, caliber, lock, barrel length/weight/profile; that, my friend, is a CUSTOM rifle. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. If I send a 1911 off to a gunsmith for a little work (sights, grips, tightening, etc) it is called a CUSTOM handgun. What's different about a rifle when it's built from the ground up for you?

If that is what the semi custom builders offered, it would be a custom gun, however, the more correctly named semi production guns are made to specific patterns, much as the European production guns. IMHO, he only real difference is the quality of the finished product and the styling.

If you look closely at TVM, for example, their guns are pretty generic. IMHO, about the only thing that distinguishes their Lancaster from the Virginia is a different trigger guard.

Not picking on TVM, just using them as an example.

A true custom gun will have components that are consistent with the style of gun being ordered, and usually made with the correct amount of drop, LOP, and cast off for the buyer...within constraints of the school.

That said, IMHO, a much better gun, than the Pedersoli can be bought used from either this site, or from Track, for about a little more, about the same, or sometimes less than the Pedersoli. Might have to watch the "guns for sale" section of Tracks on line catalog until you find something you like, but a wide variety of guns, at a wide variety of prices, show up there.

God bless

 

[oldarmy]

I agree with the "generic" term.
However, If you are willing to spend more money.. funny how that works.. :hmm:
They will have it carved and engraved for you.
Don't know who they hire to do it, but it's nicely done.
Again, It's all what you are willing to spend.
You can buy a nice "in the white" rifle with GREAT WOOD,SWAMPED BARREL, TOP QUALITY LOCK.
Finish it to your best ability.. It's a one of a kind :thumbsup:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I have read several threads here about how different a custom rifle feels from something like a TC Hawken.
What exactly is it that makes the difference? Is it the reliability, the feel, or what?

Jim

Custom rifles are made to fit YOU. Things like length of pull, drop and cast off are figured to your dimensions. It would be rare to find any production gun that has any cast off. You adapt to them--the custom is adapted to you. When you shoulder it the sights will be aligned and ready to go.

The custom will have a lively feel due to its better balance--especially with a swamped barrel. There's no extra wood or weight to deal with when carrying or shooting the rifle. Laid side by side, many of the differences between customs and production guns are immediately obvious. Historical correctness of course is one of them as is the custom gun's finer fit and finish. It will also have parts of higher quality. It will be unique.

There are good production guns available, but they aren't cheap anymore and they do not come close to offering what a custom does.

You are better off with the custom--even a used one--because you can always get your money out of it should you decide to sell it. With a Spanish or Italian production gun the value drops as soon as you buy it. And you are more likely to want to dump it due to quality issues and poor fit so you can figure on losing money on it. A good flintlock is a wonderful thing and a cheap one is a bloody horror to have to live with.

The only advantage to a production gun is saving some money. After years of ownership, you probably won't recall what you paid for the custom rifle. But you will never forget the dis-satisfaction you felt with the cheapie. I know. I've been there.

 

[Lorne Johnson]

In truth there are several right answers to your question, there are even more than one right answer for you.

A custom gun is a wonderful thing, and a special pleasure to own. A real working antique is even more so.

A production gun is a good tool in its way. It is especially good for learning on because everyone makes mistakes when they are learning, and some of us will even admit it. TC Hawkens work, and Lymans GP's work (a little better in my opinion). I don't believe that they are any more historically accurate than the Pedersoli GP's or Mountain Rifles. (The Pedersolis have flat mainsprings which are certainly more authentic than the coil springs, but coil springs work, and you can't see them until you take off the lock.)

It took me a while to figure out how to control corrosion. I was shooting over dogs (for dog training) 3 to 5 times a week, which made a an hours clean up somewhat prohibitive. So I had to learn how to work out a system that supported my pattern for using the gun, or perhaps the other way around. Eventually, I did, but I'm glad that I didn't have a $3,000 custom SxS that I was experimenting on.

 

[hanshi]

Not meaning to butt heads or anything like that but "generic" has little to do with it being a custom rifle. If it's built to your specifications it is "custom" by definition. Matt builds guns from boards with no stock duplication machine. Each one is different. I have two Lancasters from him and they could easily be from two different makers. You'll not find two anywhere that are like mine. They're not duplicateable (is that even a word?! ). Where does the "semi" come in. If you copy an existing rifle (original) you have a replica. It can be argued that it's not custom, just a replica. Even if it cost $3000. To me, semi-custom (if it truly exists) would be a Lyman GPR with replacement lock/barrel/inlays, etc. Production is the way it leaves the factory. Even factory guns can be custom (think S&W or even NSW) if ordered to fit YOU! So in this respect a replica can be (but not necessarily) a custom. You can also argue that a "custom" gun is whatever you (rhetorical "you") say it is. You don't have to pay many thousands for the privilege of calling it custom. If there is none other just like it, then it is custom IMHO. With all due respect, I've never been able to see this razor distinction of semi-custom/custom. I appreciate your input.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Are the ramrod holes on the Avance guns drilled or routed out?

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

We can play games with semantics forever, but I'm not sure that is very helpful to Pepperbelly. We've explained the differences between custom and semi-custom already and I'm sure he understands it. There is a place for both but they are very different animals. These terms have been in use for a long time and are clearly understood and accepted by most of us--even most who own semi-customs. I suppose that if one owns a few semi-custom guns and sees the term as a bit demeaning (even though that was never the intent), he might be a bit rankled by it. If that were to be the case, further attempts at discussion would likely prove fruitless. :v

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Whether the gun is a cheap used Spanish rifle or a $3000.00 custom, the cleaning process is the same and quite simple, and that information is available right here on the forum.

Production guns are banged out like Chevys and are about as unique. If you are willing to settle for what everyone else has and serious depreciation doesn't bother you, along with a one size fits all gun, you may be happy with a mass produced gun. Some folks are easy to please and happy to admit it.

The custom or semi-custom will fit you and will have higher quality components. It will be unique and as the years go by it will increase in value. Even used guns of this class will continue to grow in value and things like length of pull, drop and cast-off are listed in a proper description allowing a prospective owner to pick one that will fit him or her. And the price will usually be much lower than a new custom, though not as low as a production gun. There's that retained value factor again. This has all been said before and has always been true. Recommending a production gun over a custom one makes no sense unless price is the only criterion. Then waiting and saving for the better gun makes more sense by far.

 

[roundball]

But.... :grin: ....just to give some balance to this discussion...there are those, myself being one of them, who got into this hobby with no idea if it would be appealing, if I'd like it or not...so I took a conservative approach and decided on the T/C Hawken as a starting point because it didn't break the bank.

Found out I loved the hobby and began to realize there was a whole world of different calibers, balls, conicals, gauges, shot, out there to experiment with and wanted to try them...but at the cost of having multiple custom guns built compared to the price of picking up and refinishing another relatively inexpensive used Hawken in a different caliber, it made a lot of sense to me to go that route, and did so for the past 18 years...don't regret it for a minute.

Staying with the relatively inexpensive Hawken platform let me take advantage of same model familiarity, same model parts interchangeability, T/C's lifetime warranty, and GM's variety of other caliber/gauge drop-in barrels for the Hawken stock...a smorgasboard of relatively low cost expansion options...and as a result I did expand laterally through several calibers & smoothbores, and enjoyed all the different forms of hunting they opened up to me.

After buying a used Hawken and refinishing it, maybe selling / replacing a standard barrel with a smoothbore barrel or a caliber that TC didn't happen to make, when the dust settled I'd average having $400-$450 invested in an upgraded Hawken...X10 for example is a gradual investment of $4000-$4500 over years...and so far I've never lost a dime on any T/C Hawken I've resold. Converesly, you couldn't even get close to having 10 custom guns built for $4000-$4500.

Now, after 18 years of experimenting, learning and enjoying all those calibers & smoothbores the bloom is off the rose so to speak...and now knowing which caliber/gauge suits my needs the best, I've begun paring down the volume of MLs I have and converting that gradual investment into just a couple of Virginia style Flintlocks...a deer rifle and a jug choked smoothbore.

Just another viable approach to the hobby...

 

[vern faulkner]

not advise, just two different paths to the same campfire. maybe you could ask a friend who's into B/P to allow you to try out his rifle just to see if you like it. If not, maybe a production type rifle would be better( less investment if you don't fall in love with B/P ). If you do get bad bitten you can make the same progression as the rest of us, up the quality ladder. The other path is one that my Pappy always told me. Son, always buy the very best that you can afford,( not necessarily the most expensive ) that way you'll never regret it. Again, no advise, just the ramblings of an old guy. Great luck with whatever you decide on and remember to keep your head down.

 

[wkndman]

PB,
I posted a while back under "what to get", as I'm starting back in BP after a hiatus. I'm in the same boat, great guns at TVM, TOW and others around 1K or less.
Decided to go in roundball's direction with a T/C NE platform, then find a 32 cal smoothie barrel for shot and buckshot balls to keep operation cost down.
Hopeful to put one together around RB's investment also, only rub.....finding a 42" round .32 smoothie and matching the NE split snail breechplug 11/16-20 to it. Oh well, it's all in fun :haha: Must'a changed my mind 47 times by now, hee,hee
Hang in there pepperbelly, your gut will figure what you want, affordibility is relative, like a former poster stated, you'll forget the money if you love the gun.
Dave

 

[hanshi]

Unless you're in that vast category, "average", (whatever that is) you pretty much have to fit yourself to (that) production rifle built for the masses. In other words you have to make do. I've owned and still own a few factory rifles and have been quite satisfied. But I'd be less than honest if I didn't admit to problems with them. We short :cursing: people have a very real hurdle to deal with concerning standard factory offerings (and especially with modern rifles). I personally have trouble reaching the trigger on many of them. But if you have one built just for you (or build it yourself) The gun can fit you and not the other way around. That, and Roundball's experiences, impel me to recommend saving up for a quality gun. Consider it an investment.

 

[Lorne Johnson]

Hello Hanshi!

I could not agree with you more, having a gun built to fit your personal mold is one of the great experiences of life! I used to have some, and I love those guns.

However, knowing one's ideal dimensions is not that simple. So, I believe that there is merit in starting out simple and learning what works and what doesn't work for you. It's part of the investment, and can be an important part.

Now, buying a used gun through a reputable and knowledgeable dealer, can be a very good strategy, but mostly because it will not lose it value in the process. The same, I suppose, could be said for a used production gun.

Still, having a custom gun builtis really still the ultimate goal.

 

[pepperbelly]

What do ya'll think of THIS rifle for sale on this site?

Jim

 

[thewho66]

If the legnth of pull will work for you I would say go for it. That is a good Cal. to start with. Balls might be hard to find retail but Eddie May would have the round ball for you to get. .40 cal is thought to be the best for accuracy and a lot of bench rest shooters use that cal. , for starting out on targets and small game it will work fine. For larger game like deer I would go with a .50cal.

John

 

[roundball]

I have a GM .40cal...extremely accurate Flintlock.
I use 30-40grns Goex 3F, .018" pillow ticking, and Hornady .390" for small game hunting.
And Birddog6 put me onto Eddie May a few years ago and I use Eddie's .390" cast balls for all my range shooting as they're much less expensive than Hornadys.

BUT...think about 'what' you want to do with the .40cal.
While its true that deer have been killed with a .22cal rifle, a .22cal rifle is not thought of as a deer caliber at all of course...and the .40cal is similar in that regard...so if your interest is deer hunting, personally I'd advise against it...very small frontal area, lightweight 92grn ball.

And even beyond that, check the state regs where you hunt because some states won't allow that small of a caliber for deer.
Furthermore, some posts have been made about states who won't even allow it in the woods for small game hunting during an open deer season to prevent someone from trying to use it for deer.

But at the range for target shooting, and if allowed for small game where you hunt, IMO its an excellent caliber and I'd rather have it than a .32/.36...that's just me.

Have no idea about the actual rifle in question however.