Shooting Military rifles like they were designed to be used

[Piquant]

What is the baseline of "not that well"? Were you shooting from a rest, or standing, and at what distance?

Were the Minies hard to load, or did they drop down easily?

We'll need more info

Shooting from the bench to 50 yards, was all over. Using 575 213 lyman mold, lubed Minnie. They dropped in fairly easy. I would like to know what y'all are doing right. What are y'all using and doing? I don't need a big write up, bare bones is fine. Minie size, powder, should it be tight loading? Is paper cartridges worth the trouble? Thanks

 

[Stantheman86]

Shooting from the bench to 50 yards, was all over. Using 575 213 lyman mold, lubed Minnie. They dropped in fairly easy. I would like to know what y'all are doing right. What are y'all using and doing? I don't need a big write up, bare bones is fine. Minie size, powder, should it be tight loading? Is paper cartridges worth the trouble? Thanks

I use a candle wax melter to melt sticks of lube I buy ,hot dip them then push them through a sizer but you can finger lube them with wonder lube or whatever is working for you.

Sizing is important for consistency, they drop from the mold usually oversized.

They shouldn't be tight, the Minie should go down the bore easily. If you have to force it down or thump it down with the rod, it's oversized and/or the lube isn't working

.575 Minies over 60 grains of 2f or 3f is a good baseline to see what's going on.

If you size them bigger, like .577- .578 just size one, and test fit it in the muzzle of your rifle to see if it slip fits or is too big.

What size groups are we talking, at 50?

The rifle is most likely hitting high, they all do at the 100 yard setting.

2-3" at 50 is about the max you should accept from a sandbag fired, solidly rested rifle with all the shooting fundamentals in place.

4-6" is the standard for 100 yards.

Playing with Minie sizes and charges will probably get groups down but you want to get the rifle putting the bullets into the same place before you start making tweaks otherwise it's like stopping a table from wobbling by filing the legs one at a time, it will be hard to get everything to fall into place without starting with how the rifle "should" shoot, and getting an idea of where it wants to hit and then go from there.

If you shoot at a target big enough to see where it's hitting, just aim at the same place and fire 10 shots. Regardless of where they go, just fire 10 shots at the exact same Point of Aim and if they want to land in roughly the same area, the rifle is trying to tell you that something is almost working. Also be mindful of Sight Picture, the rear sight of my ArmiSport CS Richmond is a huge lazy V shape and it's hard to get the front sight in the same spot in the notch every time sometimes.

 

[Stantheman86]

Paper cartridges are convenient , if nothing else, once you get a load and bullet size worked up. Not just historically accurate but it is far easier to carry a bunch of cartridges to the range than a bunch of loose components.

It also helps to eliminate errors.....you can't "dry ball" or double charge, or double load with a cartridge. You have 1 cartridge in your hand, you bite the paper off, pour the powder, take the minie out and ram it, then cap. It's so much easier than fooling with flasks and measures, and a loose bullet.

 

[Piquant]

I use a candle wax melter to melt sticks of lube I buy ,hot dip them then push them through a sizer but you can finger lube them with wonder lube or whatever is working for you.

Sizing is important for consistency, they drop from the mold usually oversized.

They shouldn't be tight, the Minie should go down the bore easily. If you have to force it down or thump it down with the rod, it's oversized and/or the lube isn't working

.575 Minies over 60 grains of 2f or 3f is a good baseline to see what's going on.

If you size them bigger, like .577- .578 just size one, and test fit it in the muzzle of your rifle to see if it slip fits or is too big.

What size groups are we talking, at 50?

The rifle is most likely hitting high, they all do at the 100 yard setting.

2-3" at 50 is about the max you should accept from a sandbag fired, solidly rested rifle with all the shooting fundamentals in place.

4-6" is the standard for 100 yards.

Playing with Minie sizes and charges will probably get groups down but you want to get the rifle putting the bullets into the same place before you start making tweaks otherwise it's like stopping a table from wobbling by filing the legs one at a time, it will be hard to get everything to fall into place without starting with how the rifle "should" shoot, and getting an idea of where it wants to hit and then go from there.

If you shoot at a target big enough to see where it's hitting, just aim at the same place and fire 10 shots. Regardless of where they go, just fire 10 shots at the exact same Point of Aim and if they want to land in roughly the same area, the rifle is trying to tell you that something is almost working. Also be mindful of Sight Picture, the rear sight of my ArmiSport CS Richmond is a huge lazy V shape and it's hard to get the front sight in the same spot in the notch every time sometimes.

Mines a Pedersoli three band 1862 rifle. I use beeswax and tallow mix lube. Don't have to force the ball down at all. No grouping at all. I may look into my bullet casting. I'll recast and try again.

 

[Stantheman86]

Mines a Pedersoli three band 1862 rifle. I use beeswax and tallow mix lube. Don't have to force the ball down at all. No grouping at all. I may look into my bullet casting. I'll recast and try again.

I also have a Pedersoli CS Richmond, I know all rifles are individuals but mine takes a .577 Minie but still does OK with a .575

Your Minies may be dropping from the mold undersized? And can't expand into the rifling

Do you have a mic to check their diameter?

 

[Piquant]

I also have a Pedersoli CS Richmond, I know all rifles are individuals but mine takes a .577 Minie but still does OK with a .575

Your Minies may be dropping from the mold undersized? And can't expand into the rifling

Do you have a mic to check their diameter

I have a 575 sizer that I can push them thru after casting fairly easy. Remembering when I first bought this rifle I also bought Minies from TOW and I remember it shooting well. It been awhile since I shot it. But now I'm shooting my castings. I'll think I will review my technique. Maybe I have some hollow spots in mine.

 

[Stantheman86]

I have a 575 sizer that I can push them thru after casting fairly easy. Remembering when I first bought this rifle I also bought Minies from TOW and I remember it shooting well. It been awhile since I shot it. But now I'm shooting my castings. I'll think I will review my technique. Maybe I have some hollow spots in mine.

It seems like you have identified a variable, it may be some casting inconsistency

 

[Piquant]

It seems like you have identified a variable, it may be some casting inconsistency

It may well be, I was thinking I was missing something the Minies needed I wasn't doing correct. After chatting with you I think I will look into the casting. Thank you for your time and insight.

 

[Stantheman86]

It may well be, I was thinking I was missing something the Minies needed I wasn't doing correct. After chatting with you I think I will look into the casting. Thank you for your time and insight.

You're welcome, the next batch you cast will probably shoot well

 

[Trot]

I was shooting my 1862 richmond today and wasn't doing all that well. Would someone explain or show me how to improve. How to make paper cartridges, the size of Minnie ball your using. Are you casting your own? I just poured the powder and followed with the Minnie. Educate me please.

Absolutely the most important thing is to size the minies to the bore of your gun. You have to measure the bore on your particular gun, there is a lot of variation in these as they come. Measure your bore, then you need minies of pure lead no more than .002 under your bore size. These are the musts, everything else will be fine tuning the load.

 

[ResearchPress]

I don't shoot in matches or N-SSA , I just try to replicate as closely as possible the cartridges that should be used . Match shooting and competition has evolved into it's own little world with these weapons.

Match shooting with the military muzzle loader, in most cases, doesn't seek to recreate original practice. Some Associations permit glass-bedding of rifles, while others don't. Parker-Hale introduced a three band Enfield with 1 in 48 twist rifling - the MLAGB banned it, as their matches are for Pattern Enfield Rifles and the P.53 did not have such fast twist rifling. The UK has a rich heritage of muzzle loading competition shooting with the Enfield - the MLAGB matches emulate the original shooting distances competing out to 600 yards. Shooting is prone with just a sling for support. However, cartridges or even paper-patched Pritchett bullets don't feature - today the shooters prefer pre-measured charges and a grease groove bullet. N-SSA matches have evolved quite differently. As have MLAIC International matches.

'Historical Shooting' has also 'evolved into it's own little world with these weapons.' Adherents will try to emulate as closely as they can original ammunition and packaging, plus building up the appropriate accoutrements and in some cases uniforms. Many (most?) today though will fall between 'Match shooting' and 'Historical shooting.' All enjoy their respective disciplines though, which is why we do it.

David

 

[ResearchPress]

The chase for "Match Accuracy" is a wild goose chase for most people, really. Unless you can really dedicate a good portion of your time shooting, tweaking your firearms, and actually competing you're just "peeing " into the wind , really. Not everything can do MOA accuracy or was designed to

If using science , astronomy and algebra at the range to shoot weapons designed to allow an untrained draftee to load and shoot 3x per minute into a man sized target at 100 makes a person feel more accomplished, then do you I shoot at 12"×12" swingers or put up my 4-6" within spec groups at 100 with "Service Cartridges "

What many seem to forget when chasing that elusive magic load, is that the shooter also needs tuning. Without training you're not going to be able to compete.

One of the joys of the military muzzle loader for me is that it isn't a MOA rifle - I like testing my shooting skills and observation of conditions. Appraising wind strength and direction, sometimes having to aim way off to account for it. Seeing the target appear at 600 yards with a well placed shot is immensely satisfying for me. I don't make any pretence that I am recreating the past - today's competition rules for target shooting with historical arms that I take part in have evolved to create a highly enjoyable sport.

In the 19thC and distinct from 'musketry instructions', target shooting was also a popular sport with Rifle Volunteers in Great Britain, who were armed with rifles that used the Government cartridge. As today, Riflemen sought tools to aid their shooting. The .568 cartridge was still used in competition, even though the service cartridge used a .550 bullet. Some complained that powder charges in cartridges were inconsistent - and (as you noted) devices evolved for checking the volume of powder during loading. Tools also evolved that had vernier scales on them and were used to adjust the rearsight elevation precisely and consistently. Eley were advertising Metford bullets for the Enfield, which used a hollow nosed bullet and reportedly improved shooting at long range. There were books published to explain the art and science of rifle shooting, as distinct from musketry instruction. They were also primarily shooting at ranges of 200 - 600 yards with their Enfield rifles, not 100 yards or less that is common place today. The 19thC competitve riflemen used all the "science , astronomy and algebra" available to him and within the competition rules.

David

 

[dave951]

I was shooting my 1862 richmond today and wasn't doing all that well. Would someone explain or show me how to improve. How to make paper cartridges, the size of Minnie ball your using. Are you casting your own? I just poured the powder and followed with the Minnie. Educate me please.

There is no rocket science here. Follow these basic steps and you'll see huge improvements in your rifle if you can halfway shoot. Ignore any of it, then good luck.

The basics-
First MEASURE your bore size. It doesn't matter what you think it is, what somebody said, or what an original is. The repops vary widely. With that in hand, get a sampler of minies from these guys and these guys only-

https://www.lodgewood.com/Bullets_c_7.html
Track and the others are fine for round ball stuff, but for military minies, the guy casting for Lodgewood is a N-SSA competitor and knows his stuff. I don't trust anybody else. Once you know what works, order that mold and cast from pure lead only and size to .001 under the known, measured bore size. Dip lube the rings only in melted beeswax/lard, crisco, olive oil, tallow. Use only real black powder. Use RWS or Scheutzen caps. CCI are reenactor caps and made for blanks. They'll ignite the charge, but kiss any consistency buh bye. And yes, my charges are not "service" charges, BUT "service" charges are also not made from Swiss, nor are they 3f. Swiss is hotter than regular Scheutzen or Goex and requires reducing the charge by 10% to get the same performance levels. Using 3f requires reducing the charge by about a further 5% so my actual "power" level is about the same as a 52-55g "service" charge. Don't get hung up on the "historic" stuff. Powder manufactured now isn't the same as back then nor are any other components you're going to use except for tallow. Shoot what works best and to perdition with what the "service" charge was from back in the day made in wartime conditions by the lowest bidder.

If you want paper cartridges, bless yer heart, enjoy. I used to reenact and have shot my share of them in blanks as in live fire on my own. I now shoot competition with these guns and look for accuracy and consistency. I also use a set of 1863 Remingtons aka "Zouaves" in doing youth instruction with minies.

But what would I know about shooting minies-

"Zouave" with Scout camp load- 580 RCBS Hogdon, 45g 3f Scheutzen, beeswax/lard, Scheutzen caps- 10 Shots OFFHAND at 50yd target squares are 1in.

Now for my competition guns-1862 Colt Contract- .580 Rapine Trashcan, 44g 3f Old E, Lens Lube, RWS caps

P58 Parker Hale Birmingham- .576 RCBS Hogdon, 42gr 3f Swiss, beeswax/lard, RWS caps 50yd

Parker Hale Musketoon- .576 RCBS Hogdon, 43g 3f Old E, beeswax/lard, RWS caps 100yd

and the money shot-
same P58 Parker Hale, load data on target. Yes, there is one first shot flyer on the clean bore 3in high, 4 subsequent shots are in the big hole 1/2 right of center.

 

[Whitworth]

I've made paper cartridges just for the experience. It was interesting but for me too time consuming when just shooting for fun. My shooting bench is 20 feet away from my computer so I have the luxury of not having to pack up the truck to go shoot. If I had to drag all my stuff to a range cartridges would be much more attractive. YMMV

 

[Stantheman86]

I've made paper cartridges just for the experience. It was interesting but for me too time consuming when just shooting for fun. My shooting bench is 20 feet away from my computer so I have the luxury of not having to pack up the truck to go shoot. If I had to drag all my stuff to a range cartridges would be much more attractive. YMMV

I honestly just feel cool using the paper cartridges, and I kinda get into a zen-like rhythm of reaching into the box to get a cartridge, loading the rifle, etc etc

 

[Piquant]

I've made paper cartridges just for the experience. It was interesting but for me too time consuming when just shooting for fun. My shooting bench is 20 feet away from my computer so I have the luxury of not having to pack up the truck to go shoot. If I had to drag all my stuff to a range cartridges would be much more attractive. YMMV

I believe my problem is undersized minie. I need a .577 instead of .575 Working on this now. Thanks everyone.

 

[Stantheman86]

What many seem to forget when chasing that elusive magic load, is that the shooter also needs tuning. Without training you're not going to be able to compete.

One of the joys of the military muzzle loader for me is that it isn't a MOA rifle - I like testing my shooting skills and observation of conditions. Appraising wind strength and direction, sometimes having to aim way off to account for it. Seeing the target appear at 600 yards with a well placed shot is immensely satisfying for me. I don't make any pretence that I am recreating the past - today's competition rules for target shooting with historical arms that I take part in have evolved to create a highly enjoyable sport.

In the 19thC and distinct from 'musketry instructions', target shooting was also a popular sport with Rifle Volunteers in Great Britain, who were armed with rifles that used the Government cartridge. As today, Riflemen sought tools to aid their shooting. The .568 cartridge was still used in competition, even though the service cartridge used a .550 bullet. Some complained that powder charges in cartridges were inconsistent - and (as you noted) devices evolved for checking the volume of powder during loading. Tools also evolved that had vernier scales on them and were used to adjust the rearsight elevation precisely and consistently. Eley were advertising Metford bullets for the Enfield, which used a hollow nosed bullet and reportedly improved shooting at long range. There were books published to explain the art and science of rifle shooting, as distinct from musketry instruction. They were also primarily shooting at ranges of 200 - 600 yards with their Enfield rifles, not 100 yards or less that is common place today. The 19thC competitve riflemen used all the "science , astronomy and algebra" available to him and within the competition rules.

David

This is exactly the information we need

I do believe most shooters neglect that they themselves are the biggest variable

That's why I call it "competition creep". It started with , I assume, Target matches between Rifle Regiments or however it went down, just for bragging rights or some kind of prize

And I'm sure, right away, guys started looking to get an "edge" by using different bullets, making sure charges were consistent, etc etc and slowly the Rules became cemented , over the years, with the P58 shooters getting the 10% penalty and everything else, and we have those matches as they exist today.

I'd think the N-SSA Skirmishing was a similar thing. In the 1960s when our reenacting took off for the Civil War centennial, those early target matches were probably not much more than reenactors using their original rifles and muskets in informal Bullseye shooting...then it grew into these matches with guys using Hoyt barrels to shoot hole in hole at 50, breaking clays etc with pet loads , and it's neat. Competition breeds Advancement

 

[Stantheman86]

There is no rocket science here. Follow these basic steps and you'll see huge improvements in your rifle if you can halfway shoot. Ignore any of it, then good luck.

The basics-
First MEASURE your bore size. It doesn't matter what you think it is, what somebody said, or what an original is. The repops vary widely. With that in hand, get a sampler of minies from these guys and these guys only-

https://www.lodgewood.com/Bullets_c_7.html
Track and the others are fine for round ball stuff, but for military minies, the guy casting for Lodgewood is a N-SSA competitor and knows his stuff. I don't trust anybody else. Once you know what works, order that mold and cast from pure lead only and size to .001 under the known, measured bore size. Dip lube the rings only in melted beeswax/lard, crisco, olive oil, tallow. Use only real black powder. Use RWS or Scheutzen caps. CCI are reenactor caps and made for blanks. They'll ignite the charge, but kiss any consistency buh bye. And yes, my charges are not "service" charges, BUT "service" charges are also not made from Swiss, nor are they 3f. Swiss is hotter than regular Scheutzen or Goex and requires reducing the charge by 10% to get the same performance levels. Using 3f requires reducing the charge by about a further 5% so my actual "power" level is about the same as a 52-55g "service" charge. Don't get hung up on the "historic" stuff. Powder manufactured now isn't the same as back then nor are any other components you're going to use except for tallow. Shoot what works best and to perdition with what the "service" charge was from back in the day made in wartime conditions by the lowest bidder.

If you want paper cartridges, bless yer heart, enjoy. I used to reenact and have shot my share of them in blanks as in live fire on my own. I now shoot competition with these guns and look for accuracy and consistency. I also use a set of 1863 Remingtons aka "Zouaves" in doing youth instruction with minies.

But what would I know about shooting minies-

"Zouave" with Scout camp load- 580 RCBS Hogdon, 45g 3f Scheutzen, beeswax/lard, Scheutzen caps- 10 Shots OFFHAND at 50yd target squares are 1in.
View attachment 181556

Now for my competition guns-1862 Colt Contract- .580 Rapine Trashcan, 44g 3f Old E, Lens Lube, RWS caps
View attachment 181550

P58 Parker Hale Birmingham- .576 RCBS Hogdon, 42gr 3f Swiss, beeswax/lard, RWS caps 50yd
View attachment 181551


Parker Hale Musketoon- .576 RCBS Hogdon, 43g 3f Old E, beeswax/lard, RWS caps 100yd
View attachment 181552

and the money shot-
same P58 Parker Hale, load data on target. Yes, there is one first shot flyer on the clean bore 3in high, 4 subsequent shots are in the big hole 1/2 right of center.
View attachment 181553

This stuff is very cool but it's Greek to probably 90% of guys who just want to get out and shoot as beginners , and just want to get a repro rifle-musket running

I know we all tend to view things through our own lens, competition shooters will see things through their viewpoint, people who collect and shoot firearms for historical appreciation will have their own viewpoints, etc etc it's just human nature

I'm not trying to kick up a hornet's nest but I'm just fascinated by the differences in opinions involved pertaining to shooting military rifle-muskets . It's almost like some people have turned them into purely platforms for competition use and subconsciously look down on those people using them as close to the original way they were used historically , as if you're "doing it wrong " by using paper cartridges and cartridge boxes to shoot military rifles designed to be used with paper cartridges and cartridge boxes .

People also buy Garands and convert them into single shots for match shooting so there's also that. Getting away from the original use of a rifle is nothing new.

The shooting sports thrive by the different aspects of shooting remaining popular, and Pedersoli makes a lot of their military muzzleloading rifles mainly for the European match shooting market , not so much reenactors or guys like me who just like putting holes in stuff for fun

 

[Stantheman86]

Also, Track of the Wolf sells the 8x1 thread #11 Cap nipples that fit the Pedersoli repro muskets and rifles

If you're low on musket caps or can only get #11's, they'll keep you shooting. I have one on my ArmiSport Richmond so I can save musket caps for my other stuff , CCI #11 Magnums work great

Obviously not "HC" but shooting is better than having a rifle you can't use

 

[dylan84]

Ok looking closer at some of these from Pedersoli. That Cook and Brother artillery carbine looks like the M4 of the 1860's! lol