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Shooting question

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1eyemountainmen

40 Cal.
Joined
Oct 1, 2005
Messages
256
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I was wanting to know if you could have to much lube on your shooting patches-making your accurates go to pot. I use TOW trappers choice mink oil and it is slick. As a side note, has anyone used mink oil with pyrodex?
 
I suppose you can. If I get too much lube on my patches, it seems to squeeze out during the seating process so it appears to be somewhat self regulating.

Dan
 
I have wondered about this myself,is it possible that a RB could react like a spit ball thrown by a pitcher? :idunno:
 
Like Dan said any excess should squeeze out when you put it in the barrel. The only other thing would be if there was a lot of goop on the base of the ball and it soaked up powder.
 
Lube fouling powder is the reason I went to using a dry patch between the lubed patch and ball over twenty years ago. I have since started using a leather wad since I have enough leather scraps to make many thousands of wads. Preventing fouling of the powder has improved my grouping.
 
I hate to beat a horse to death, but every smoke stick is different in my book. Some like it, some don't.. Here to tell with my sticks, you'll have to see what your's likes...
 
I'm interested in the leather swab thing. I would say I'm new to BP shooting but since I haven't actually started yet, I plan to be new to it soon. The last pieces of steel are wrapped in cotten and soaking in vinegar so I should be shooting within the week.

I'm talking way beyond my education here but it seems like swabbing between shots pushes the crud down into the powder chamber; especially using a non-absorbent material like leather. I am in no way questioning your judgement or technique; just trying to understand the actions/reactions of each part of the shooting process. There are a thousand different methods of firing and and I'm just trying to put together a plan that includes the best parts of each method.
 
PrimitiveHunter said:
...

I'm talking way beyond my education here but it seems like swabbing between shots pushes the crud down into the powder chamber; especially using a non-absorbent material like leather. I am in no way questioning your judgement or technique; just trying to understand the actions/reactions of each part of the shooting process. There are a thousand different methods of firing and and I'm just trying to put together a plan that includes the best parts of each method.

Ramrod is not talking about swabbing the barrel with a leather patch. He is talking about pushing a leather patch down the barrel in back of the patched round ball. This keeps any goop out of the powder and provides extra protection for the patch from the burning powder.

I used to do the same thing with an extra patch when I was hunting and using heavier loads target shooting. I used to blow the patches I used with lighter charges to confetti when stepping up to 100 yard loads. As you might guess this blew accuracy out the window. The extra patch kept the patch around the ball together.
 
ohio ramrod said:
Yep! thats what I ment. :thumbsup:

Please bear with me on my dumb questions. I hate to ever take anything for granted. When you double patch the ball with a dry patch between the lubed patch and the ball, do you reduce the size of both patches or just use a really thin dry patch? I don't want to be a pest but again, I'm trying to understand all of this.
 
You put the dry patch in, you pull the ramrod out
you put the normal lubed patch & ball in ,you pull the ram rod out ,you do the hokie pokie and you shake it all about...........
Don't forget to take the ramrod out or to put the powder in first, saves you some embaressment. :redface:
 
Wads- Fiber, wool, leather, cotton-- used between the powder charge and the PRB are 'FIREWALLS', to protect the patch around the ball from being burned by hot charges of powder, or thin patches.

If you use another cotton patch, or cleaning patch, folded to fit down the bore, as a firewall, its still driven down the bore onto the powder FIRST- Not wrapped around the ball.

There are occasions when a very undersized ball is all that is available to shoot out of a particular caliber gun. In those instance, people have used two patched, both lubed, to wrap around the ball to fill the grooves of the rifling enough to provide a good seal. For instance, years ago, my brother had a barrel re-bored and rifled to .42 caliber from about .34 caliber. The only balls he had on hand were .390" for another .40 caliber rifle he owned. To try out the new barrel, he used the .390 balls and DOUBLE PATCHED the ball. He was able to get an idea of what powder charge the new barrel would like doing this. The next day, he got lucky, and found a Lee Mold in a local gunshop covered in dust, that was, I believe, .415" and worked perfectly for the new bore diameter. His first 5 shots off-hand at 25 yards, with the new balls, and 40 grains of 3Fg powder gave him a 48-2X score on an NMLRA target at Friendship. He later found that using 45 an then 50 grains of 3Fg powder gave even tighter groups out at 50 yds. He now uses a 1/8" thick, Vegetable Fiber Wad between his powder and the PRB to act as a firewall in that gun. His ball patch is cotton, mattress ticking that measures .015" thick.
 
Wads aren't normally needed unless your patch is thin because the ball is too large for the rifle. That is a common problem. .485 works well in most 50 caliber rifles. .520s for most 54 caliber rifles and the problems go away.
 
runnin lead said:
You put the dry patch in, you pull the ramrod out
you put the normal lubed patch & ball in ,you pull the ram rod out ,you do the hokie pokie and you shake it all about...........
Don't forget to take the ramrod out or to put the powder in first, saves you some embaressment. :redface:

I'm at work trying to juggle a few things so I couldn't figure out what made me think y'all were talking about double-patching a ball. Then I found the sentence in ohio ramrod's post. "Lube fouling powder is the reason I went to using a dry patch between the lubed patch and ball over twenty years ago." I didn't think I dreamed that up. Anyhow, I understand what you're talking about now.
 
It's true that you can push crud down into the powder chamber, if your rifle has one, but you are using a cloth patch not a leather one. What folks are talkikng about when they speak of using leather as part of the load is using it as an over powder wad. I use them for all of my guns. I make them from scrap 5 oz. tooling leather. I bought a set of cheap hollow punches from Harbor Freight. They are cheapies and are most likely made in China but they will do just fine for making wads. For my .50 caliber rifles, I use a 1/2 inch hollow punch and punch out a pile of wads. They are about 1/8 inch thick. I put them into a jar and pour Ballistol on them and let them soak for a few days. Then I take them out and pat them dry and they are ready to go into my bag. To use them, I first measure out my powder and put in in the barrel. Then I seat one of the wads on top of the powder. After that, I seat my patched round ball on top of the wad. The purpose of the wad is to provide a good seal betweeen the burning powder and the patched ball. The better seal will give much better consistancy between shots. I ran a test in which I fired 10 shots over my chronograph without the wads and another 10 shots with the wads. Without the wads, my standard deviation of the muzzle velocity was 21. With the wads it dropped to 7. As an added benefit of using the wads, I can shoot over 30 rounds and never have to swab the bore to remove fouling.

To reduce fouling, do not use more powder than can be burned in your barrel. Look up the Davenport Equation on Google and calculate how many grains of powder your barrel can burn optimally. According to the formula, you can load 11.5 grains per cubic inch of barrel volume. It is not exact because it does not take into account the different brands of powder nor the granulation but it is a good estimate. Stay below that number of grains and you will have less fouling. You can also change from ffG to fffG (reduce your load by 10%). Usually, your best starting load will be the same number of grains as your caliber.....45 grains for a .45 caliber, 50 grains for a .50 caliber, etc. At least that is a pretty good starting point.

Never ever use an inorganic lubricant on your patches. It will burn and cause a tarry residue in your barrel that will just add to the fouling problem. Organic lubricants such as Ballistol, Bore Butter, bear fat or hard fat from any other animal, bees wax, Crisco, olive oil, etc and mixtures of these things all make good lubricants for your patches.

I hope you find something useful in my ramblings and a harty welcome to the world of muzzleloading. I think this is the best website to find information on muzzleloading. Stay with us and share your knowlege with us and we will share with you. :thumbsup:
 
Another question if you start with 50g of fffg and get great groups at 50 yds, and then say go to a 70g fffg for hunting does the point of impact change greatly?
 
Thanks! I have the leather patch thing straight in my mind now. Using the Davenport formula, my 50 cal rifle with a 32" barrel will burn about 65gr of fffg powder in the barrel. The Lyman chart recommends loads between 50gr and 100gr of fffg. Are you saying that anything over 65gr is just turned into smoke and fouling? I wouldn't think that powder burnt after it leaves the barrel can add anything to velocity or accuracy. So I likewise wonder why they would recommend powder charges over that amount.
 
You can get more velocity at the Muzzle using more powder, but the issue is can you get better accuracy, that is consistent? Anyone can get a 3 shot group that pops your eyes out, but can the load and gun and shooter consistently shoot that same small group with those higher powder charges?

If you don't know the Ballistics Coefficient of Round Balls, or how much this causes any Round ball to loose velocity after it leaves the muzzle, then all this gets a lot more confusing. Do you know the speed of sound? With large caliber guns, the loads given are purposely designed to keep the ball traveling at UNDER the speed of sound. The same thing goes with Shot Loads for smoothbores. With the medium calibers, such as are used for hunting deer, many hunters try to get a high enough velocity at the muzzle to keep the ball going ABOVE the Speed of Sound out to where the ball is going to strike the deer at the maximum chosen hunting range. But, short barreled guns rarely get a ball going fast enough to keep it above the speed of sound much past 50 yds.

There is also the Transonic zone to consider, and that is a window from about 1250 fps. down to 1100 fps, where air pushing against a round ball does all kinds of nasty and unpredictable- much less controllable-- things to its flight path. All these things destroy accurate placement of RBs. And, you can't do anything about them.

The more powder you put in the barrel, the more recoil you will feel, and we know that affects group size. It also delivers various shock waves in front of the muzzle, which push against the back of the ball, and surrounding air, which then has to come back to fill in the vacuum these waves create. That process disturbs the drag "cone" immediately behind the ball, affecting flight characteristics of the ball. If the crown on your muzzle is Not perfectly concentric, whatever imperfection will be magnified by the higher pressure created by the greater powder charge, as the gases escape out the muzzle around the PRB.

The current " experts" in this sport on how to get maximum accuracy from a PRB have to be the Chunk Gun shooters. They are shooting rifles off a rest, from a prone position, at an "X" target mounted out at 60 yards. The goal is to get the center of the ball as close to the center of the "X" as possible, for each of 10 consecutive shots.

The winner of this Year's Sgt. York Memorial Chunk Gun Match had a "string" that was only 4.65" long. They all shoot LONG BARRELS to achieve this kind of accuracy, Not short barrels. And, because the target is only 60 yards away, if they shoot a .45 or smaller bore rifle, they can get the ball going fast enough that it stays above the Transonic zone at that distance, and is still accurate( obviously).

100 yds. is a lot further distance, and few of even these guns can keep a ball going fast enough out at 100 yds. to stay above the transonic zone.

Short barreled guns have their place. The barrels today on commercial guns, like the T/C, or Lyman products can certainly withstand the larger powder charges. But, most deer are shot well within 50 yards, so a hunter is not particularly handicapped if he uses that short barrel MLer, and a 65 grain powder charge. A .50 caliber ball will completely penetrate ( both sides) of a deer's chest, if its shot broadside with such a load, at 50 yds. or less. If you are accurate enough in how you aim the gun, and can put that ball in the lungs/heart area of the deer, you will "make meat".

Do your own accuracy testing. Do your own penetration testing. I found, to my surprise that when I fired my .50 caliber using 60 grains of FFFg powder, and then 100 grains of FFFg powder, the lead ball penetrated the same distance with both loads. Since the heavier charge was throwing unburned powder on the ground in front of my muzzle, I backed my hunting load back, by doing accuracy testing, to 75 grains. My first deer was shot with that gun at about 40 yards, with a 65 grain charge of FFFg powder. The ball broke a rib going in, penetrated both lungs, and some major arteries above the heart, and then broke a second rib going out. The hole in the second rib was about 3 times the size of the entry hole. She staggered down a steep ravine for about 75 feet before collapsing at the bottom, leaving clear tracks, and a double blood trail along the way.
 
Thanks again! I know that the biggest, fastest bullet in the World is useless if it doesn't hit the target. I also know there is a point of diminishing return as far as kinetic energy is concerned. I did NOT know about the other information you related. My goal is to have an accurate, consistant load that will completely penetrate a deer at 50 to 60 yards. Anything else is a waste of powder and useless stress on me and the weapon.

My rifle will be complete this week so I guess I'll start at 50gr and shoot that for a a hundred rounds or so as I learn the art of BP loading/shooting and break the barrel in. Plus, I have a pound of Pyrodex to use up while I wait for my Graf BP to come in the mail. Punching holes at 25 yards sounds like a good way to accomplish both.
 

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