Shooting very undersized balls/.570 in a .62"

[Rat]

Just for fun I cast up a bunch of .570" balls since I still don't have a mould for a .600", for my Jaeger. DO'H!!!

:curse: :curse: :curse:

Had a couple .570"s laying around, and discovered that they seemed like a pretty good fit in the Jaeger with a denim patch. Again, just to give me something to shoot in Brown Rosie it sounded like a worthwhile experiment.

Went out back and loaded her up. Felt reasonably tight, but didn't need the short starter. Kind of nice...loaded over 100 grains of Swiss and a Wonder Wad, and Wonder lube 1000+.

Wasn't expecting much, and at first they did indeed seem to have a pretty big spread at 65-70 yards, around 6" I would guess. Were not going into any kind of "group" at first.

The more I shot though, they seemed to tighten up, startin' to group.

Put a new plate up, and decided I'd see how many I could keep on the plate, aiming for the center, before I quit. Most of my shots had been going low, aiming for the bottom of the plate.

Shot five more times and got a 2" four shot group with #5 shooting high and left, which brought the five shot group to 3.5". As the four shots are in a round pattern, and the fifth shot is outside the main cluster, that one shot "could" be called a flyer, though I did not call it when I shot it.

Now with the .600" ball and .018" patch, the rifle is certainly capable of much better than that. But, I found it interesting that a guy could, if he really wanted to, shoot such a undersized ball with a thick patch, and get reasonable hunting accuracy. I'm assuming that if the balls kept going into 2" as a rule, that would probably still be at least a 3-4" group at 100, certainly under six inches, which I consider "good enough" for big game, although of course we want to strive for better.

Thoughts, comments? That's a long road from .570" to .620".

Sure was fun shooting Rosie. Same flint as Birddog6 sent with the gun, (and it's starting to look FUNKY) never wiped the frizzen...the rifle has not had a misfire or hangfire yet.

Rat

 

[roundball]

Just for fun I cast up a bunch of .570" balls since I still don't have a mould for a .600", for my Jaeger. DO'H!!!

:curse: :curse: :curse:

Had a couple .570"s laying around, and discovered that they seemed like a pretty good fit in the Jaeger with a denim patch. Again, just to give me something to shoot in Brown Rosie it sounded like a worthwhile experiment.

Went out back and loaded her up. Felt reasonably tight, but didn't need the short starter. Kind of nice...loaded over 100 grains of Swiss and a Wonder Wad, and Wonder lube 1000+.

Wasn't expecting much, and at first they did indeed seem to have a pretty big spread at 65-70 yards, around 6" I would guess. Were not going into any kind of "group" at first.

The more I shot though, they seemed to tighten up, startin' to group.

Put a new plate up, and decided I'd see how many I could keep on the plate, aiming for the center, before I quit. Most of my shots had been going low, aiming for the bottom of the plate.

Shot five more times and got a 2" four shot group with #5 shooting high and left, which brought the five shot group to 3.5". As the four shots are in a round pattern, and the fifth shot is outside the main cluster, that one shot "could" be called a flyer, though I did not call it when I shot it.

Now with the .600" ball and .018" patch, the rifle is certainly capable of much better than that. But, I found it interesting that a guy could, if he really wanted to, shoot such a undersized ball with a thick patch, and get reasonable hunting accuracy. I'm assuming that if the balls kept going into 2" as a rule, that would probably still be at least a 3-4" group at 100, certainly under six inches, which I consider "good enough" for big game, although of course we want to strive for better.

Thoughts, comments? That's a long road from .570" to .620".

Sure was fun shooting Rosie. Same flint as Birddog6 sent with the gun, (and it's starting to look FUNKY) never wiped the frizzen...the rifle has not had a misfire or hangfire yet.

Rat

I've never done that...but if you're getting acceptable accuracy, the only thing you might want to be concerned about would be that somehow the ball could move off the powder if you were out hunting, moving, walking, etc

 

[doverdog]

I was at a trail walk shoot 2 Sundays ago and at the last station, found I was out of balls. I keep a few spares in the back pocket of my pouch so I was able to finish the final two targets. My shooting partner said he would have let me have two of his, .530"'s for his .54. I shoot .557" balls with a .024" patch in my tight Colerain .58. After I finishd the final target, it ended up slightly turned and stayed that way due to a tangled chain. It was only about half as visible as it should have been and presented a smaller target for my friend. I told him to give me one of his .530" balls, which I used with two of my patches, esentially patching it with a .048" patch. It felt about like the normal ball/patch combo when I loaded it and I hit the target with the shot and untwisted it. He fired and hit the target but it twisted again. I got another ball from him and repeated the shot, hitting it again. I was very surprised such a small ball shot that well, even with such a thick patch. Now, if I can find a source of .048" patch material, I may shoot small balls all the time and save lead. ::

 

[roundball]

I was at a trail walk shoot 2 Sundays ago and at the last station, found I was out of balls. I keep a few spares in the back pocket of my pouch so I was able to finish the final two targets. My shooting partner said he would have let me have two of his, .530"'s for his .54. I shoot .557" balls with a .024" patch in my tight Colerain .58. After I finishd the final target, it ended up slightly turned and stayed that way due to a tangled chain. It was only about half as visible as it should have been and presented a smaller target for my friend. I told him to give me one of his .530" balls, which I used with two of my patches, esentially patching it with a .048" patch. It felt about like the normal ball/patch combo when I loaded it and I hit the target with the shot and untwisted it. He fired and hit the target but it twisted again. I got another ball from him and repeated the shot, hitting it again. I was very surprised such a small ball shot that well, even with such a thick patch. Now, if I can find a source of .048" patch material, I may shoot small balls all the time and save lead. ::

That is interesting...gonna have to try some of that myself at the range

 

[Ridge]

My little 40 can only get off about 7 or 8 shots before she becomes hard to load. I've often loaded naked balls with good results. I think the concept would be about the same.

 

[Rat]

Mr.Round, that combination, denim/denum? patch with the .570" ball loaded pretty tightly...just not tight enough to require a short starter. Patches looked very normal when fired...didn't detect any unusual blow-by, but I did notice much less recoil compared to the .600" balls.

I am not going to use that ball in my rifle, it was strictly just an experiment...so I won't be walking around the woods with it in the rifle!! Still want to use as much ball as I can, for maximum whompability.

Accuracy was indeed "acceptable" but this rifle will probably shoot close to an inch group with the .600" ball after I get the barrel "shot-in", get my load fine tuned and all that. From what I hearing from others, all those Colerain barrels are tight, mine must not be much over .615" or so.

Rat

 

[Stumpkiller]

I can't argue with results, but based on my past attempts of shooting a .310 ball in a .36 cal rifle I am amazed that you got a 40 grain lighter ball to hit to your previous sight setting. I must not have patched tight enough or loaded to heavy or something? Mine shot wild.

 

[Rat]

Yep beats the bear-snot out of me too. This ball and patch was not loose fitting at all, so that must have something to do with it. Also had a wonder wad under it to keep the blast from blasting past the thick patch...must have worked.

One funny observation was that it did shoot pretty "big" at first, then the group kept tightening up. However, I'm thinking that the more I shot I was just getting more "into the groove". Air was dead still and I felt like I was "on" for shooting...and my shooting position felt good. Also, I started out just pulling my front trigger. About the time I started setting the trigger things tightenend up...so....?? VARIABLES!! DO'H!

.31 from .36 is the same difference as .57 from .62...but far too many other variables as to why it did not work in your rifle.

Rat

 

Hey, Rat. Would you be interested in borrowing my coning tool? It's a Joe Wood .610. You should measure your bore land to land and see what it truely measures out to be. I'm curious. My .62 Colrain Jaeger measures .610 :hmm: Joe custom turned this tool for me and you're welcome to use it if you want to.

 

[Rat]

Hmmmmmm.....maybe I would....did you get good results with it? You must have. Does it allow you to start a ball with the ram-rod, that without coning would have to have been short-started?? It is kind of nice not short-starting the ball, even though I don't really mind.

Don't know why I never mic'd my bore before, so I just did and I get .612" land to land. Guess I will start calling it a .61". Wonder why Colerain calls it a .62"?? Maybe they split the difference between the land and groove measurements...? Well that certainly explains why the .600" ball is a tight fit.

Rat

 

I'm using a .600 ball with .010 natural lube pre cuts and it loads easily using only the ram rod :: My Wal-Mart pillow ticking(.018) with moose milk is a tad too tight so I may order some .015 pre cuts and give that a try. I love the way it all slides down as it is now but going to .015 patches may snug things up a bit but still be able to be started without the dreaded short starter. I guess I could try .610 balls with the .010 patches but I just bought 75 .600s from track recently. I'm not a good shot but my personal accuracy did improve after coning. The recovered .010 patches are charred to a total crisp. Isn't that supposed to mean something? Combo too loose maybe? :hmm:

 

[Rat]

Could be the powder granulation, but that is a pretty thin patch.

Most people will say that the faster burning fffg can burn patches, whereas ffg or fg won't, but just the opposite is true in my Brown Bess...fg will TOTALLY smoke the patches, ffg and fffg are progressively more easy on[url] them...in[/url] that gun. I've never shot anything but ffg Swiss in the Jaeger.

In Bess, the addition of a Wonder Wad under the ball and patch, even with the fg patch killing load produces a patch that could be used again.

What powder charge are you using? I'm shooting 100 grains of ffg Swiss under a .600" ball, .018" pillow ticking patch and Wonder Wad, and fired patches look real nice. Patches also looked great, from the .570" ball loads and the denim patches, with which I also used Wonder wads.

Rat

 

[ffffg]

youl probably find the same thing happening the next time you go out.. 6 inches to start and smaller as the grooves start to fill in with fouling.. so it will be fine for fun shooting and target and game that a 6 inch group will be good for that range that you are using.. if you want to get first shot accuracy get a cusom mould for your gun, wipe between shots for max accuracy etc, etc, many methods are used in this world for second third shots.. .. i got a cusotm size mold from dixie gun works and its fine.. more work becouse i have to cut the spru by hand. there are other mould makers in the buisiness tho. also a fiber wad behind the ball and over the powder could help first shots accuracy, it may stop blow by.. dave..

 

[Rat]

Now there's a variable I didn't think about...the grooves filling up. That could indeed make a difference with such an undersized ball and thick patch.

Been planning to get a .600" mould from Midsouth...but keep putting it off, forgetting, or remembering when I'm broke. I'll get around to it, and probably buy another box of .600" balls in the meantime.

But hey, if I just want to plink, I won't be afraid to poke a .570 down the bore with denim patch. But now I'll have to try it again, just to see if I get the same shrinking group effect.

With a tight fitting ball/patch combo, or a tight fitting slug, I usually get good first shot accuracy from my ML's. This was the first time I've ever shot such an undersized ball...although with the thick patch it was not loose fitting in the bore.

My .570" mould is a Dixie mould, and throws a nice round ball that casts out to EXACTLY .570", just as the mould is stamped. Cutting the sprue with some wire cutters is pretty fast...I notice that it cast balls a lot faster than a mould with a cut-off plate...but I guess it evens out after you hand cut the sprues off. At any rate, I got that .570" mould about 20 years ago. Recently I bought a .735" mould from them, and it didn't have half the quality of old .570 mould...threw a pear-shaped ball so I sent it back (but first cast up about 100 ball) and got a refund. Then I discovered that my .75" shot that pear shaped ball really accurate...DO'H!! Wish I had kept it!!

Then I got a .726" from Jeff Tanner, and it throws a ball that measures .726" around one way, and .677" around the other...a "Long Ball". Unfortuneately it tumbles real bad from my smoothie...whereas the pear shaped ball will go into 3" at 50, and stay on the paper plate at 75, the "Long Ball" sometimes fails to even hit the backstop (40"X40") at 50 yards. Do'h!

Oh well.

I wonder if that "Long Ball" would shoot good from a rifled .69"??

Rat

 

I'm shooting 100gr ffg Goex with ffffg primer. I've opened the hole in the vent liner to about 5/64's" and ignition is sure fire every shot and seems to be instantaneous. I'm for sure going to order some .015 wonder lube pre cuts. With .010s it seems to load too easily if you know what I mean. Half the fun is experimenting with all the possible loading variables.

 

[eldeguello]

I have shot .550" balls in my .58 (.575" land dia.) with a thick artist's canvas patch, and they shot quite reasonably! Loaded pretty easy too, as you noted. I used 120 grains of GOEX FFg, same load I use with a 570-grain Minie ball in this (Green River Rifle Works 36" barrel, 1/60" twist) fullstock flintlock Hawken rifle. :agree:

 

[Rat]

Kinda seems to validate the theory that the old-timers used some pretty undersized balls.

Yes I'm glad I have all summer to experiment with this .61". (The Jaeger formerly known as .62") Originally I was hoping to have it for last hunting season, but now glad to have the whole winter, spring and summer to shoot it before taking it out for Elk and bear next fall.

Yep .010" seems like kind of a thin patch for a ball over a good stout hunting load...but I guess it all depends on what it looks like after the shot. I use .010"s in my Bess sometimes, and they are fine as long as there is a Wonder Wad underneath. Acutally I load my first hunting load into a clean barrel with a .018", and then the reloads in my ball-block have the thinner patch in them.

Rat