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Short Land Pattern Brown Bess Flintlock Musket

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ZUG

Pilgrim
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Who sells a GOOD 2nd model Brown Bess that will not break the bank:dunno:? I don't do reenacting or plan to shoot it often but I do want one that works and goes "bang" when I pull the trigger:ghostly::ThankYou:

Access Heritage Inc (formerly The Discriminating General):

This company is advertising a 2nd model (non-firing) for $599 which they say to get it to fire you need to drill the touch hole. What's the forums opinion on this?

Non-Firing State
We sell historically accurate muskets and pistols in a non-firing state for demonstration purposes. This allows us to comply with various local, state, national and international firearms regulations, along with shipping company policy restrictions. This means the product can be shipped right to your doorstep. A certified gunsmith may decide to alter a musket or pistol to a firing state by drilling the vent hole and test firing it. No need to remove the breech plug. We are not legally responsible for any changes from its present state.​
 
Have you looked at Loyalist Arms?

They sell a functioning firearm and don't dodge legal responsibility.
Not trying to derail the thread but in your opinion is there some companies out there that you might want to look out for that reason? I was doing some internet searching for the OP on options but didn't want to post anything that might not be a quality firearm.
 
Have you looked at Loyalist Arms?

They sell a functioning firearm and don't dodge legal responsibility.
I have looked at their web page and I like what I see. I also looked at Ackermann Arms and I did not see anything that I am interested in at the moment but I did bookmark the site for future visits - thanks all for the info :ThankYou: :thumb::ghostly:
 
Not trying to derail the thread but in your opinion is there some companies out there that you might want to look out for that reason? I was doing some internet searching for the OP on options but didn't want to post anything that might not be a quality firearm.
The companies that sell their firearms as complete but the purchaser has to drill the touch hole. Some are building to the safety standards of the materials of a traditional muzzleloading firearm. In many of the cases where the touch hole isn't being drilled, the firearm is marketed as a wall hangar that can be turned into a firearm. Just a red flag to me and I don't recommend that practice.

It's a little different for the sellers of a parts set or a kit to be assembled by the purchaser. In those cases, the purchaser is taking on the liability of assembling the firearm. Some kits will have the touch hole drilled while some do not.
 
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It’s the location of the breach plug that is the bigger issue. Too far forward and you have to remove it and modify it for ignition.
 
The companies that sell their firearms as complete but the purchaser has to drill the touch hole. Some are building to the safety standards of the materials of a traditional muzzleloading firearm. In many of the cases where the touch hole isn't being drilled, the firearm is marketed as a wall hangar that can be turned into a firearm. Just a red flag to me and I don't recommend that practice.

It's a little different for the sellers of a parts set or a kit to be assembled by the purchaser. In those cases, the purchaser is taking on the liability of assembling the firearm. Some kits will have the touch hole drilled while some do not.
Thanks, I've never dealt with any of those companies before and was curious. Years ago I bought a Dragoon horse pistol from Middlesexvillagetrading and still have it. Never had any issues with them or their customer service along the way. It's the only India made firearm I own and I still really enjoy it.
 
Not sure of what your definition of “bank breaking” is but I got a Pedersoli Bess (kit) from Dixie Gunworks I have been very happy with. Shoots great too.
 
Have you looked at Loyalist Arms?

They sell a functioning firearm and don't dodge legal responsibility.
Oh yes, they do dodge responsibility. They're worse by going even further to attempt to protect the unknown Indian manufacturer. Funny that you have to actually read their site to make an accurate statement on this -

IMPORTANT NOTE TO OUR CUSTOMERS:
"The following note is made in lieu of all warranties, express or implied by the manufacturer.
Loyalist Arms and Repairs Ltd will not be held responsible for any loss or injury caused in any manner, either directly or indirectly from any product obtained from Loyalist Arms and Repairs Ltd. Neither seller nor manufacturer shall be liable for any injury, loss or damage, direct or consequential, arising from the use or misuse of any product, (including but not limited to guns, swords, etc.), sold by Loyalist Arms and Repairs Ltd. Before using, the user should determine the suitability of the circumstances under which the product is used; and the user assumes all risk and liability whatsoever in connection therewith............We recommend strongly that ALL muzzle loading arms, no matter who the manufacturer is, be proofed before regular use."

Whether they drill the hole or not, none of these Indian gun resellers are actually claiming to sell a fireable product. Save more and buy something from an actual and reputable manufacturer or wait for one on the used market.
 
Oh yes, they do dodge responsibility. They're worse by going even further to attempt to protect the unknown Indian manufacturer. Funny that you have to actually read their site to make an accurate statement on this -

IMPORTANT NOTE TO OUR CUSTOMERS:
"The following note is made in lieu of all warranties, express or implied by the manufacturer.
Loyalist Arms and Repairs Ltd will not be held responsible for any loss or injury caused in any manner, either directly or indirectly from any product obtained from Loyalist Arms and Repairs Ltd. Neither seller nor manufacturer shall be liable for any injury, loss or damage, direct or consequential, arising from the use or misuse of any product, (including but not limited to guns, swords, etc.), sold by Loyalist Arms and Repairs Ltd. Before using, the user should determine the suitability of the circumstances under which the product is used; and the user assumes all risk and liability whatsoever in connection therewith............We recommend strongly that ALL muzzle loading arms, no matter who the manufacturer is, be proofed before regular use."

Whether they drill the hole or not, none of these Indian gun resellers are actually claiming to sell a fireable product. Save more and buy something from an actual and reputable manufacturer or wait for one on the used market.
And, here we go again. The start of 15 pages of anti-Indian gun bashing. Opinion.
 
And, here we go again. The start of 15 pages of anti-Indian gun bashing. Opinion.
I read the post as a comment on the inaccurate information shared previously as if it was factual. Something members should point out and something I would appreciate if I asked a question and was given bad information.

Maybe we need 15 pages of why inaccurate information should not be posted. And the cool thing about an forum that is made for opinions, is you can actually ignore posts if you want. Opinion.
 
I read the post as a comment on the inaccurate information shared previously as if it was factual. Something members should point out and something I would appreciate if I asked a question and was given bad information.

Maybe we need 15 pages of why inaccurate information should not be posted. And the cool thing about an forum that is made for opinions, is you can actually ignore posts if you want. Opinion.
Perhaps, but the same tedious answers are just that. And the same people post the same arguments.
 
Oh yes, they do dodge responsibility. They're worse by going even further to attempt to protect the unknown Indian manufacturer. Funny that you have to actually read their site to make an accurate statement on this -

IMPORTANT NOTE TO OUR CUSTOMERS:
"The following note is made in lieu of all warranties, express or implied by the manufacturer.
Loyalist Arms and Repairs Ltd will not be held responsible for any loss or injury caused in any manner, either directly or indirectly from any product obtained from Loyalist Arms and Repairs Ltd. Neither seller nor manufacturer shall be liable for any injury, loss or damage, direct or consequential, arising from the use or misuse of any product, (including but not limited to guns, swords, etc.), sold by Loyalist Arms and Repairs Ltd. Before using, the user should determine the suitability of the circumstances under which the product is used; and the user assumes all risk and liability whatsoever in connection therewith............We recommend strongly that ALL muzzle loading arms, no matter who the manufacturer is, be proofed before regular use."

Whether they drill the hole or not, none of these Indian further insightgun resellers are actually claiming to sell a fireable product. Save more and buy something from an actual and reputable manufacturer or wait for one on the used market.
Thank you for providing further insight into these liability issues. I would believe that most manufacturers and resellers would want to limit liability with respect to misuse of their product. I have made the point that firing a heavier charge than one that would be used for hunting or target shooting is NOT proofing the firearm. Extreme caution and examination are prudent for the first firing of a firearm that is new to the user. I do not consider that to be a proof test.

To the members of the Forum, I regret that I made a misleading statement with regards to the liability responsibility of Loyalist Arms. I do have two of their firearms. Both are reliable and fully functioning arms, therefore I have and do recommend the offerings from Loyalist Arms.
 
My first gun barrel I ever bought was a Green River Rifle works, touch hole wasn’t drilled
I’ve bought several barrels over the years since, they came with very limited warranties, low powder charge recommendations and no touch hole
Did a bit of research for about eighteen months, could not find one instance of an Indian Barrel failing that was properly carted for and properly loaded
I would recommend you tube 11Bang Bang channel for a start to research Indian guns and a real good visual presentation, certainly not an end all, but a very good look
 
I have a Bess from each Canadian store, Loyalist and Heritage. Loyalist was more expensive but the lock was tuned and still, 20 years on, works flawlessly*. The Heritage Bess was undrilled, the lock was slow and the spark was weak. I sent it to a smith to see what he could do. Upon return it too functions flawlessly*

* That's if I do my part correctly :)
 
Not sure of what your definition of “bank breaking” is but I got a Pedersoli Bess (kit) from Dixie Gunworks I have been very happy with. Shoots great too.
By me saying "breaking the bank" for me it's spending over $700 for ANY firearm. I make all my own muzzle loading long guns have been since 1968. I'll buy BP revolvers NEW - I purchased only one used and regretted it. The only kit I would buy is a Kimber kit if I want quality not headaches.
 
Oh yes, they do dodge responsibility. They're worse by going even further to attempt to protect the unknown Indian manufacturer. Funny that you have to actually read their site to make an accurate statement on this -

IMPORTANT NOTE TO OUR CUSTOMERS:
"The following note is made in lieu of all warranties, express or implied by the manufacturer.
Loyalist Arms and Repairs Ltd will not be held responsible for any loss or injury caused in any manner, either directly or indirectly from any product obtained from Loyalist Arms and Repairs Ltd. Neither seller nor manufacturer shall be liable for any injury, loss or damage, direct or consequential, arising from the use or misuse of any product, (including but not limited to guns, swords, etc.), sold by Loyalist Arms and Repairs Ltd. Before using, the user should determine the suitability of the circumstances under which the product is used; and the user assumes all risk and liability whatsoever in connection therewith............We recommend strongly that ALL muzzle loading arms, no matter who the manufacturer is, be proofed before regular use."

Whether they drill the hole or not, none of these Indian gun resellers are actually claiming to sell a fireable product. Save more and buy something from an actual and reputable manufacturer or wait for one on the used market.

I'd recommend actually reading the full section, and not just the self-highlighted portions. First, a company saying "you can't make a claim" does not mean that is legally binding. Did you sign a form agreeing to that before buying? I've seen thousands of forms people sign agreeing not to sue a place or company, and just about all are worthless. Even if they wrote, "Doing business with us is consent to the above stipulation", that won't fly.

Second, note "We recommend strongly that ALL muzzle loading arms, no matter who the manufacturer is, be proofed before regular use." OK so they admit by that statement that they are selling muzzle loading arms. They send the buyer instructions on how to self-proof the gun that they sold, including a ball and a piece of fuse... so they blatantly admit, and worse they encourage, that the thing is meant to be fired. ;) And it's in no way equal to legal "proofing" of a black powder barrel, so ...,

OH and do you know what is likely to happen when you try to sue a "reputable" manufacturer of muzzle loading barrels lets say, here in the USA? You find out that they are out of business, and their assets only amount to several dozen barrels in various levels of completion. Their land, their building, their equipment, all are leased (coincidentally from an adult relative of the barrel company owner) , and the plaintiff barrel company has declared bankruptcy. OH and a few days later a company will appear, with a vary similar name, leasing the same facility and equipment, and hiring all of the previous workers, perhaps with a different President and Financial Officer. So Loyalist Dave Barrel Company Inc. would be gone and the new company would be L. Dave Barrel Company Inc., with a slightly different logo. Get sued again, and the next company would be LD Barrels Inc. and so on and so on...., OH and the company you would find, is located in a state where it's very tough to sue the actual owner unless you can prove gross negligence when the company assets don't satisfy the claim. Which is why there are no such companies here in Maryland, a very liberal lawsuit state. This business practice exists today, I'm told as a result of the Sharon Barrel Company which had some insurance and owned everything, and got sued, and died as a result.

LD
 
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