Shot size for clays

[Joel/Calgary]

I'm trying to cut down on the amount of STUFF I have around here, and simplify what I schlep in the field. In my unchoked 16-bore, for small game and birds other than waterfowl, I've pretty well settled on 2 sizes: #5s and #7s (#7.5s until the current supply is used up).

By the way, I've about given up on chilled shot for birds, because of feather balling compared to hard or plated shot. I've mixed the remainders of the soft shot (mostly #4-6) and I'm using it up for bunnies and messing around.

I want to settle on one size for clays. Mostly we shoot informally, hand-thrown and/or with the spring flinger, but my partners and I are trying to organize occasional rounds of trap and skeet. I used to use the #7.5s, but I've been trying #8s and I seem do be doing better with them in my limited experience. I'm wondering if there'd be any advantage to #8.5s or if they'd run out of steam before I ran out of pattern. The trouble is the "limited experience" I mentioned. For a combination of circumstances, I can't play (or test) much at the present, so I'd like to check with the collective experience of the Forum.

Thanks,
Joel

p.s I use FFg, with equal-volume loads for close work and "1/3 more shot" for tighter patterns. If I ever get drawn for turkey, I may try 1/2 more shot with #5s. Plus I increase my powder charges as temperatures drop to try to keep velocities up, +1/2dr around freezing, and +1dr when its cold (~0F/-18C).

p.p.s. I still have several pounds of Bi #4s for waterfowl. Trying to conserve it geese, I'm still working on steel shot and non-plastic shot protectors for duck (Fe #3) and for swatter-load cartridges (Fe #5 or #7). I need more testing, but 1.25oz over 3.5-3.75dr FFg has promise, although I may have to use plastic, if just mylar wraps inside the card stock.

 

[paulvallandigham]

JOel: YOU have to pattern shotguns using different shot to find out what works in your BARREL. No two guns are going to be alike. Some favor #8 shot: others will shoot better patterns with $7 1/2 shot.

In my modern 12 gauge, I shoot mostly #8 shot, in light 2 3/4 dram equivalent loads. But, on gusty, Fall and Winter days, with winds 20 mph and higher, I switch to 7 1/2 shot for better patterns. With the #8 shot load, I can kill clays out over the arc, when I have to shooting doubles. I have shot my heavy #5 shot loads from back of the 27 yard line- say 30 yards from the traphouse- - where I was breaking targets at over 50 yards from the muzzle. With the heavier shot, and the good patterns I get out that gun shooting it, ( 2 3/4 Dr. Eq. PB, 1 1/4 oz #5 shot) the shot will starburst the clay if I do my part.

If I had to choose two sizes of shot to use, I would stick with #8 for clays, and #5 for game, except doves, where I use the #8 shot for those small birds. I have spent many hours patterning my shotgun, to determine what works. I also have a friends who has spent years at the pattern boards, who coached me when he saw my targets. I had been shooting #6 and #7 1/2 shot when we met, but as soon as he saw how my patterns looked on the targets, he recommended that I try #5 and #8 shot, instead. I have not bought any more #6 shot since. I did buy more #7 1/2 magnum shot, because I needed to try out all the various shot sizes in my BP shotgun, and later in my Fowler. When I found that my fowler shot #8 fairly well, I knew it would also shoot #5 well, and it does. However, if it didn't, I would have invested in a new bag of #6 shot.

So, do hit the patterning boards, and just do the laborous work it takes to actually see how the gun performs with the different shot sizes, and different loads.

I first settle on a load, after reading recommendations from a variety of sources, and then talking to more experienced shooters. Then, I just make up a few cartridges using the different shot size, and see how the patterns look. Vary only one component at a time, or you will never get done, and will learn very little about your gun or the loads.

If you have a chronograph, break it out when you are getting a pattern you like, so you can get an idea on the velocity at the muzzle for that load.

If you are worried about damaging the chronograph shooting shot over the screens, then put your shot load in a paper cylinder, twisted close at both ends, and fire that over the screens. The velocity reading will be the same. The shot just won't spread open into a pattern wrapped up in that package. For a mandrill, to make the tubes, you can use your ramrod, or any stick you can find or whittle down to fit comfortably inside your barrel.

 

[bwhoffman]

I used to shoot a lot of competitive trap (20K/year) for years and some skeet, sporting clays and local trap club fun shoots.
my favorite load, back toabout the 25 yard line was an ounce of 8s,just cause there was not as muchrecoil and pattern density was excellent. In the rain and wind I would go back to 7 1/2s.

For hand thrown informal targets, I'm thinking you are going to like the 8s! main point being is that you will be a lot closer to your target than at a formal club or competitive situation.
All you need is a visible piece or chip to score. 8s and 8 1/2 will do that for you as will 9s(if you're doing 16yd targets)
The more pellets in the air, the better your percentage of hits.

but do pattern your your gun and develope a load to prove it out!

personally, in our monthly tradegun aggregate, we shoot 4 round balls and 1 shot load. I stoke it up with a low powder load and heavy shot....65gr 2f and 1 3/8oz of 9s onto a stationary paper target no more than 35yd from me, not moving! it pretty much stays together at that distance with the light load.

 

[CZMark]

After much experimenting, almost all of my clays shooting is now done with one ounce of #8 shot.

 

[Tumblernotch]

I use #8's in my modern 12 ga. O and U for most Sporting Clays stations, but sometimes like to use 7 1/2's for extra long shots and rabbits (clay).

I haven't had the chance to properly pattern my 16 ga. Wm. Powell ML yet, but # 8's seem to do pretty good so far. I'm still working on that load. I know it will kill squirrels with # 5's, but being cylinder bored I'm handicapped for range.

 

[bwhoffman]

jug choking is a possibility!

 

[Tumblernotch]

That would be an idea, but this is about a 145 year old gun with Damascus barrels that are very thin walled at the muzzle. I'm afraid I'll have to pass on that. I'll just use it for club trap shoots and maybe some rabbit hunting. I'm sure that when I go back up to PA, I'll have to try it out on some Sporting Clays just for the heck of it. :grin:

 

[Leonredbeard]

KR,
I suppose it would be indescrete to put a short expander inside your muzzle at the right place and expand a jug choke instead of machining it?

I realize that this would not work at all on a doubled barrel gonne, as you would be up against the joining ribs.
volatplvia

 

[Tumblernotch]

Probably not a good idea. I'll just leave her like she was made. Purty little thing, with bird and dog scenes engraved all over. After I get back from the Alvin York shoot I'm looking forward to us having some club trap shoots and really seeing what it will do. It seems to throw a 1 oz load of 8's pretty good out to about 30 yds. I still need to do some serious patterning to see how those barrels are set up and to tweak the loads a little.

 

[Leonredbeard]

I'm not sure why my results were so different from everyone else's on this thread. When standing at the shooting line behind the big thrower at sixteen yards, I had to go to #5 shot with my black powder gonnes to hit the birds. They are so far out there by the time I fire that I needed larger shot so they would get there. I really don't have enough experience at trap shooting to be any kind of authority.
volatpluvia

 

[CZMark]

Many ranges now restrict shot size to nothing larger than #7 1/2--you need to get on target a bit quicker. :wink:

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Were you aiming?

 

[paulvallandigham]

The shot gets there, regardless of the size of the shot. The trap target is set to travel a course that has it hitting the ground 50 yards( 150 feet) in front of the traphouse. You would have to be shooting very light loads of any size shot for the pellets not to be able to fly 150 feet!

Using a light 2 3/4 dram( 75 grains) load of FFg, and 1 1/8 oz. of #8 shot, I have broken clay targets a foot before they hit the ground. When I use #5 shot and the same powder charge in my modern, full choked shotgun, the clay targets to break spectacularly! BUT, You don't need #5 shot to break clay targets, and many club ranges prohibit the use of shot sizes larger than # 7 1/2.

You need to get on the targets faster, and you need to learn to point targets, rather than aim at them.

You have to pattern your loads ON PAPER to know where the pattern is striking ( POI) as opposed to where you are pointing the shotgun's front bead( POA). Because trap targets are rising, most shooters will set up their guns to shoot higher than their POA, by raising the height of the comb of the stock. However, if you really know where the pattern is going to strike, you can do a fair job at the trap range using a field grade stock on your gun.

Where you set your feet at about 10 degrees to a target to shoot an aimed rifle, you have to set your feet at about 40 degrees to the target to shoot moving targets with a shotgun.

When you shoot a rifle, you set your feet BEYOND THE WIDTH of your shoulders, to stablize your " shooting platform" from the waist down.

When shooting a shotgun at flying targets, you position your feet UNDER your shoulders, using the same kind of stance you learned when playing basketball,or boxing, or any of the martial arts.


When shooting a rifle, you balance your weight, and the weight of the rifle, equally, over both feet.

With a shotgun you shift your weight to your front hip, and the ball of your front foot, so that you can pivot or rotate your whole body quicker to hit the hard left and right angled targets.

Then, it helps to know how to set your feet at each of the 5 stations, to maximize your chance to get on to those hard left and right targets, and also where to point your shotgun to pick up the targets quickly as they leave the traphouse.

There is a different place to point for each of the five stations, and also a different height to use. Generally, if you put your bead on the top front edge of the traphouse, divide the house into 5 slices, you will quickly learn where to point the gun to allow you to see the target the quickest as it comes out of the house.

I point Stations one and five a foot off the corner of the house. Stations 2 and 4 are pointed over the corners, and station 3 is just left of center, because I am Left handed.

I want to see the target before it goes under my barrel so that I can begin moving my gun to catch up to it while its rising from under my barrel where I can finally see it. RH shooters do well by pointing Station 3 slightly to the right of center of the house.

If you are Far-sighted, you may be able to point the gun shoulder high, and with enough practice, break the clays just as they reach shoulder height. This technique only requires you to move the barrel right or left, and NOT up and down to hit the target. A friend of mine learned to shoot clays this way, and he broke targets so close to the traphouse, that pieces would rain down into the house and on the trapboy if there was an on- coming wind.

 

[bwhoffman]

and then there are those of us who can "soot ball" the target.

I hold over the trap house, shoot with both eyes open(takes time to learn that) and know my POI.
Of course, stock fit has a LOT to do with it.
trap guns are designed to shoot high with more of a "head up" position, typicly, and a field gun will tend to shoot flat or lightly lower, for an inbound duck situation!

stock fit and trigger time will prevail time and again. and swing thru and follow thru you targets as opposed to aiming!
8's will break them :wink:

 

[Tumblernotch]

Like the others said, most courses, especially Sporting Clays limit shot sizes to 7 1/2. 8's are usually all you need and if you can change chokes, that can help you. At the SC courses I've shot at, you can change chokes between stations.

No matter what load you come up with, the key things to remember are knowing how much to lead (tougher on SC because of the variety of speeds and angles) and to remember to follow through on your shots. If you check your swing or raise your head you're almost always doomed to miss.

 

[Dave K]

All muzzleloader shotgun shoots I have been to,(where you are shooting original guns) have you start shooting at the 10yd. line instead of the standard 16yd. line that is used for the breechloaders. I have found that shooting the old cyl. bore guns, that around 35yds from your shooting position with an original, no choked, gun is about the max. I have had others watch and I have watched others, it is right about at the 30yd. line from the shooter, that many will get their birds. Some are much quicker on target than that and some will "ride" the bird out further, but this is probably a good average. So I use this has a guideline. Yes, many trap ranges have a max. size of 7 1/2's. I use 7 1/2's myself. None of my guns are choked(yet). All my trap and dove loads are 1oz.,2 3/4dr.2f, for my 12ga.,14ga. and 16ga guns. and 7/8oz.,2 1/2dr. 2f, for my 18 and 20ga.

Being thin at the, muzzle could by design. I have noticed though that many of the old guns have some pretty severe muzzle wear from the ramrods. So the barrels are usually pretty good right behind the muzzle. Have a good gunsmith check you wall thickness, to know for sure.

 

[Joel/Calgary]

Hi, all,

Thanks for the info. I've been kind of busy and I'm a slow writer, so I've been reading but not replying. It sounds like #8s are likely my best choice for one-size-fits-most clay shooting at muzzle-loading velocities and cylinder patterns. I don't need small shot for hunting. We don't have fox squirrels and greys and reds are classed as fur-bearers (requiring a trapper’s license), and we don't have any game birds smaller than huns, sharpies & ruffies. The closest things we have to doves are barn pigeons (feral rock doves), and they aren't classed as "game" birds.

Paul: Of course I'm going to pattern the loads, but the question was whether #8.5s had sufficient chance of being my universal clays shot to be worth the time and expense to try them, when I'm challenged on both counts at the moment. If I ever get a digital camera, the analysis, if not the patterning, will likely be expedited using the "Shotgun Insight" program.

Brett & Dave: My barrels were made from a breech-loader, so there is little muzzle wear, but they are thin enough to preclude honing, let alone jug choking. As it is, 1.25oz of most shot sizes over 2.5dr patterns rather well when I use some sort of shot protector (rough bores). But Runball's "tampon" shotcups look promising for particularly long shots - although I think I may use the 19th century term "shot concentrator". I'm going to try plastic, but I think an un-slit coin-roll type with the top open and the bottom and edge glued closed may well work for home-made & biodegradable.

BTW, I had a serious bald moment in my first message - the increments of additional powder charge that I use as weather gets colder are 1/4dr, not 1/2. Naturally, this is a simplification of what should probably be a percentage change, but it seems to work well enough over my normal range of loads and it is in keeping with traditional measurement units.

Thanks, again,
Joel

 

[xxgrampa]

keep at it joel, you will get there.. if the other shotguners were like me, it cost a few thousand dollars to get that first 25 straight patch :grin:

you got it rite, go with the 8's..

..ttfn..grampa..

 

[bwhoffman]

keep at it joel, you will get there.. if the other shotguners were like me, it cost a few thousand dollars to get that first 25 straight patch :grin:

you got it rite, go with the 8's..

..ttfn..grampa..

It was the 100 straights that cost me a bunch!
...and then the lewis's and perfect 50's didnt pay much and then the guys that didnt want to shoot off knowing they wouldnt recoup shell costs.

I like this bp stuff a lot more cause its not really about the win!

now its me and my roundballs. if I get a blanket pick, great! if not, I get to shoot and walk the trail with some pretty neat folks!