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410-er

50 Cal.
Joined
Nov 29, 2005
Messages
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New to the smoothbore.Plan on using my perc. double(12ga)for rabbits and possibly pheasants.I have lots of #4 around.Would this be OK or should I get #6 or #7 1/2?Choke on both barrels are open.Using 11ga Circle Fly for over powder and 12 fiber for shot.Might give the rolled newspaper for shot cup idea.
Be ready guys.I have lots of questions. :grin:
 
410-er said:
New to the smoothbore.Plan on using my perc. double(12ga)for rabbits and possibly pheasants.
I have lots of #4 around.Would this be OK or should I get #6 or #7 1/2?
Choke on both barrels are open.Using 11ga Circle Fly for over powder and 12 fiber for shot.
Might give the rolled newspaper for shot cup idea.
Pellet count goes down significantly with #4s of course...but would fine for rabbits at typical rabbit shot distances. But #4s might be too thin of a pattern from a cylinder bore for a pheasant if he got any kind of distance on you...maybe not.

After a few years of trying some 4's, 5's, and 6's, I've settled on #5's for small game like squirrels & crows...and I'll use the same #5s on a rabbit if I ever SEE one...I swear its been several years since I saw my last one while out deer hunting.

For small target vitals like doves and turkey-heads I bump up to nickel plated #6's where I like the extra pellet count...so far, so good.
 
I would agree with roundball's general scheme. I've been doing quite a bit of dog training on pheasants with a muzzle loader (mostly a 20 gauge), and I use 1 ounce of six (usually copper plated). Works well.
 
Back "in the day" I hunted a lot of upland game with a ML 12 gauge double. I've also done a bunch with cartridge shotguns.

Here's a useful rule of thumb: At hunting distances and ML velocities, a #6 shot isn't likely to pass completely through a rabbit. A #5 will most of the time, and a #4 will all the time.

In my guns it's kind of a crossover decision between pattern density and chewing on shot. I settled on #5's as a best compromise for rabbits. Since they patterned well, that's what I also used for pheasants on my trips south. I generally used #7 1/2 for ptarmigan, roughly the size of a chukkar.
 
Weighted out 1 1/4oz of #4.Pellet count was 110.Made about 12 newspaper shot cups with them to try.Using 70grs of FFg.Think I'm going to get some #6.
 
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I've been useing #6 only because I had a bunch of shells I emptied out. I think I am going to get a bag of #5 when I run out.
 
410-er said:
Weighted out 1 1/4oz of #4.Pellet count was 110.Made about 12 newspaper shot cups with them to try.Using 70grs of FFg.Think I'm going to get some #6.


Now that's interesting. Something's going on there.

Your count sounded low, so I checked my Lyman shotshell manual. According to them 1 1/4 oz of #4's should translate into approx 169 pellets, while the same weight of #5's is 213 and #6's is 281.

Truth be known, I've always taken their word for it and never done my own count. Going from 169 down to 110 would make a huge difference in pattern density! Ah man, I hate the thought of counting all those little bitty pellets, but you did the right thing. :surrender:
 
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Mix your #4 shot with 7 1/2's. Equal portions by volume of each produces a duplex load that will provide penetration with the #4's while the 7 1/2's fill the holes in the pattern. I like #5's and 7 1/2's but use your #4 shot.
 
BB: The difference is often the result of using a volume measure vs. an actual scale. However, the poster indicates he " Weighed out " the load, so he should not be that short in his pellet count.

I have actually weighed loads with #7 1/2, #6, and #5 shot. If you crease a piece of paper, ( Or draft the daily newspaper for this duty) you can dribble the shot, one pellet at a time, into a bowl, to help in the counting process. I have never reloaded #4 shot, so I have had no occasion to count those pellets. However, with the three different size shot I have counted, the pellet counts were as "advertised".

I did this first many years ago to win an Attempted Murder Case. The police "theory" was based on the imagination of the victim, and their personal lack of knowledge of firearm ammo. They believed the victim was shot multiple times, indicating a clear intent to murder. By counting the number of #6 shot pellets that was contained in a W-W .410 2 1/2 inch shotgun shell( 163-164), I was able to show that he fired only ONE shot, and that was confirmed by the physical evidence, and witness testimony.

The Detectives had tried to count pellets from the X-ray taken of the victim, and found a cluster of between 20-30 pellets in the man's right shoulder, and, by their count, approx."180" pellets in the body. They didn't know how that cluster of pellets in the right shoulder got there, unless there were two shots fired.

The testimony of witnesses, and the physical evidence indicated that the shooting occurred in a very small house, in the middle of the night, with the victim waking from his drunken stupor, without a shirt on, to continue threatening the accused.

The Accused, fresh out of prison, had "borrowed" a single barrel shotgun and ONE shell, from a local, unlicensed "pawn broker", and gone back to settle their dispute when he could protect himself from the victim.

The victim was a known violent man, who had a pending criminal charge of Agg. Battery against 5 police officers called to his mother's house to remove him, who he attacked with a pair of Scissors. It took 5 officers to secure him to make the arrest. Nice guy. I was his court appointed attorney.

" The Street" had warned the accused not to dismiss any threat this " victim" made to him, as he was considered to be both dangerous and nuts! Hhe didn't want the man picking the time and place to attack him- prison survival instincts.

If the cluster of pellets had been fired from a separate shot at that close range( muzzle less than 3 feet from the man) it would have blown the socket into bits, and probably caused the amputation of the man's right arm.

Instead, what actually happened was the "victim" saw the accused coming towards him through the door, and was reaching down to the floor to pick up a "cane"- the kind of carnival cane you get as a prize-- to hit the accused with. The accused could not see, in the darkened house, what the man was reaching down for, so he shot the man. Part of the shot hit the shoulder socket, and left that cluster of pellets in his shoulder. The rest raked the abdomen, spreading out, so that the "Pattern", on the X-ray, actually looked like the man was shot from about 25 feet away. That was physically impossible considering the layout of the house, etc. If the 'victim" had been wearing even a T-shirt when he was shot, the police would not have made these mistakes.

As the result of my Counting Pellets, the Att. Murder charge was dropped, and the Defendant was convicted instead of possessing a firearm as a felon, and sentenced to 3-9 years in prison. His parole on his earlier Armed Robbery conviction would be done by the time he became eligible for parole on this gun charge conviction, so he took the plea offer, and thanked me for helping him.

He served his time, came out, and served his parole without incident He got a good job, married, and helped raise a step daughter. I met him years later when he was a witness in another case.

Oh, The victim was given Probation on his own Agg. Battery Charges, and remained in the community, a drunk, who was often arrested on other misdemeanor charges. I told officers if he threatened them, or tried to fight them to just tap him in the stomach to gain control over the idiot. I didn't want him hurt, if possible, but I knew how stupid he was when he was drunk, and how violent he could be. I didn't want him hurting any police officers. He lost about 10 feet of his small intestines from that shooting, but otherwise was fine. A Tap on the gut, and later, even a move to do so was all the officers needed to get him to comply to being arrested.

Sorry about the length of this comment. I thought the story was interesting enough to help answer the question, " Why would anyone count Shot pellets?" :rotf:
 
My scale has 1 1/4 weight at 546grs.My scale went to 500grs.I halfed that and doubled 270grs.
 
According to my published tables, 1 oz. of #6 shot should have 225 pellets. 1 oz. of #5 shot will have 170 pellets. 1 oz. of #4 shot will have 135 pellets.

If you calculate the number of pellets for 1 1/4 oz. of each size shot you get:

#6= 279
#5= 212
#4= 169

Please remember that when shooting a BP shotgun, you can increase the pellet count to any point you want, because the Barrel is your " shotgun shell, or casing. You are Not restricted by the length of a separate "casing" to the amount of shot you can shoot.

Recoil will rise, as will chamber pressures, however. For example, at 135 pellets per oz., you would have to load 2 ounces of #4 shot to achieve the same pellet count as you have in a 1 1/4 oz. load of #6 shot. Don't expect to get the same kind of Muzzle Velocity shooting 2 oz. of shot that you get shooting a lighter load of shot.
 
Paul -- I'm with ya there. I tend to use smaller sized pellets for all game rather than following the "experts in gun magazines" who---if you listened to them---you would "need" a different size shot for almost every species of game animal out there and a different load amount too! Just their way of getting us to buy buy buy!

I like more shot, and the way to get there is smaller shot size. I only have 7.5's, 8's, and 9's right now (oh, an BB's but that is for other stuff). When I used 4's and 6's I had too many birds that continued to fly away. My percentages are considerably up since I went to smaller shot and much more shot per load. (What works for me may not work for you, so results may vary, hahaha)
 
When deciding to use smaller shot, remember the Caveats:

1. If your guns is a cylinder bore shotgun, the range for decent patterns and power is going to be about 30-35 yards, MAX. Beyond that the number of cripples, and misses rises.

2. Inside 30 yards, adding more pellets to your load using small shot sizes will increase the number of pellets that strike the game, and thereby increase the total PELLET ENERGY transmitted to the game for a quick, shocking kill.

3. In deciding which size shot to use, keep in mind the average body weight of the game, and then check the down-range pellet energy chart in any Lyman Shotshell Reloading manual.

Conversely, the rationale behind using heavy shot sizes( #5s, #4s, #2s, etc.) is that the pellet energy in these large pellets DOWN RANGE carries significant killing power, so that you only need to hit the game with 2 or 3 pellets, for that quick, shocking kill, vs. hitting them with as much as 3X the number of pellets using smaller shot sizes. How fast pellets leave the muzzle is really not that important, when it comes to the ability to kill. Inside 20 yards, you can kill just about anything with even the smallest size shot!

Its when you get to 30, and 40 yards, that the choice of pellet( shot) size becomes a balance between how tight your gun will throw a pattern at these ranges( increasing the number of pellets likely to strike the game) and how much pellet energy can be delivered by only a few pellets of a large size at that longer range. In a cylinder bore shotgun, the longer range patterns are denser, and smaller in diameter if you keep the muzzle velocity low, than if you try to increase the MV. With choked shotguns, the choke allows you to retain smaller patterns with higher velocities down range.

I use 1 1/8 oz. of #8 shot to shoot dove, for instance, because the bird is very small, and the pattern contains a lot of shot to take a dove down. On the other hand, I use 1 1/4 oz. of #5 shot( In my 12 gauge gun) to shoot pheasants and chukkar partridge, because the birds weigh so much more. Both shot loads work just fine on the occasional rabbit that I kick up, within the ranges I am likely to be able to see them to get a clean shot. If I were in country that provided grouse, or quail, I would stay with the light shot sizes( #7 1/2 or #8). If I were only going to hunt only rabbits, I would choose #6 shot, but would likely use whatever I have on hand.

I have cleaned pheasants killed with #7 1/2, #6, #5, and #4 shot. I would rather pick the small shot out of the meat than to tear the meat up with #4 shot. :hmm: I can always make Pheasant Stir fry with the mangled meat :shocked2: , but its nice to have Baked Pheasant some of the time, too! :surrender: :thumbsup:
 
I only have 2 sizes of shot in the house, #5 and #7 1/2

7 1/2 for dove sized game, #5 for EVERYTHING else, keeps it simple. Rabbit, Pheasants and turkeys dropped clean and no spitting shot at the dinner table.

Mostly scared the doves with those loads of 7 1/2 LOL!!!

Just my 2cents!!
 
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