Should the powder charge be equivalent to the caliber?

[toot]

I restored a 45 caliber Dikar, Spanish percussion pistol a few years ago. I shoot 15 grains of FFF in it, with a 440 or 445 patched round ball. It still shoots a little high. I tried 20 grains and had significant recoil. View attachment 133079

and that is only a 5 grain increase in a 45 CAL! can you Amagine that load in a 31 CAL?

 

[Flintlock]

I restored a 45 caliber Dikar, Spanish percussion pistol a few years ago. I shoot 15 grains of FFF in it, with a 440 or 445 patched round ball. It still shoots a little high. I tried 20 grains and had significant recoil. View attachment 133079

I'd start filing that rear sight down as soon as I found a accurate load.

 

[Kansas Jake]

I'd start filing that rear sight down as soon as I found a accurate load.

The Dikar pistols have a small wedge front sight only about 1/8” tall. A better solution might be to dovetail in a taller front sight.

 

[Flintlock]

The Dikar pistols have a small wedge front sight only about 1/8” tall. A better solution might be to dovetail in a taller front sight.

Yes but the rear sight is unnecessarily tall.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

sort of like how many Angels dancing on a pin. Smaller calibers need much less than "caliber" in grains. Barrel length is a factor and keep in mind that pistols are generally not long range shooters anyway. So no matter what, a muzzle loader pistol is not going to be a 150 yrd bear killer. Also, what works for stopping a human threat is not the same as a deer hunting load. If a pistol is fired, it is normally for target and plinking. Load accordingly. No sense beating your self up with recoil or wild shots. The minimum that will consistently hit where you aim is best for target work. I had a very accurate little 32 caliber. For target shooting, I used an old 38 S&W case for a powder measure. Might have been 10 -12 grains of 3fg. Never really measured. It was consistent for target shooting. I used the same 38 S&W case for my 36 caliber match pistol

 

[BlackRock52]

I shoot a CVA derringer made from a kit, I have shot it a lot. I used to carry it when I lived in Utah to circumvent the NO FIREARMS signs that popped up in a few places since Utah law considers muzzleloaders to not be firearms. I used 20 gr of 4f powder and a .440 rb. they are intended to basically inject the ball into the target as accuracy is somewhat less that ideal much over 10 yards and you are starting to get shaky on a target smaller than a dinner plate. I'm not sure it would be all that effective in a self defense situation, but it seemed better than just a knife.

It would probably decide the question "Who's going home with my wallet tonight?" (Hence my decision to most often carry .32 single action. Light and doesn't print.) My CPL Class taught that most defense firings occur at around 7 yards or less so yours ought to be good to go. My only concern would be the cap not be where it is supposed to be...

 

[Khufu]

I restored a 45 caliber Dikar, Spanish percussion pistol a few years ago. I shoot 15 grains of FFF in it, with a 440 or 445 patched round ball. It still shoots a little high. I tried 20 grains and had significant recoil. View attachment 133079

It is a CVA Colonial Pistol, I built mine from a kit in the mid 70's, I fixed the front sight so it shoots dead on with 45 gr of fffg powder and a .440 prb
recoil is pretty mild on mine.

 

[cal.45]

Are you planning using this derringer for anything other than novelty plinking? In my 50 cal Kentucky pistol I only shoot 25 grains 3F in it for targets. In my Ruger old army I only use 20 grains 3F. That’s what is most accurate in both of them. I think whatever powder charge you use from 15 grains to 45 grains it’s just gonna be a noise maker and make smoke. Most likely won’t be shooting for groups past five to ten steps with a derringer. In my opinion anything over 20 grains of 3F in a derringer is just wasting powder.

I will use it for plinking but will keep it loaded for self defence, doesn’t hurt having an extra pistol around. Beside from the bullet itself, the unburnt powder from a heavier charge might serve a purpose in a self defence scenario?

 

[cal.45]

Not sure I could get 36 grains in my 1851 navy without a lot of exertion. But I know that if I did, I'd definitely notice the recoil.

I restored a 45 caliber Dikar, Spanish percussion pistol a few years ago. I shoot 15 grains of FFF in it, with a 440 or 445 patched round ball. It still shoots a little high. I tried 20 grains and had significant recoil. View attachment 133079

It is a CVA Colonial Pistol, I built mine from a kit in the mid 70's, I fixed the front sight so it shoots dead on with 45 gr of fffg powder and a .440 prb
recoil is pretty mild on mine.

View attachment 133160

20 grains and significant recoil, 45 grains and mild recoil. How come pistols differ in recoil like that? Is it only a matter of the weight of the gun? What’s the weight of your guns?

 

[Flintlock]

20 grains and significant recoil, 45 grains and mild recoil. How come pistols differ in recoil like that? Is it only a matter of the weight of the gun? What’s the weight of your guns?

It is most often who is firing the gun, some don't handle recoil well.

 

[Khufu]

20 grains and significant recoil, 45 grains and mild recoil. How come pistols differ in recoil like that? Is it only a matter of the weight of the gun? What’s the weight of your guns?

look at the pictures, they are identical, same barrels, same weight, though I have never shot a load as light as 20 gr, 30 is a VERY light load, it chronographed at 500 fps +/- and 45 grains runs almost to 800. the recoil of a 133 gr ball moving under 800 fps is way lighter than a 38 special
all my revolvers that are non dragoons recoil like a 22 lr. a single shot with a little more barrel can burn a little more and actually use it and get some decent results, but even 54 cal pistols with 10" barrels loaded up with 60 gr don't recoil as bad as a 357 mag. So a 45 cal with 20 gr is so anemic, you would probably be better off with a sling shot. I will load 20 grains next range trip and measure the velocity. probably around 300-350 fps remember a .440 ball is about 133 gr or so, a 38 spec used 125 to 160 gr bullets doing 850 fps or so no way 45 grains recoils as much as a 38, and that's pretty light. I guess some folks are VERY recoil sensitive.

 

[doubleset]

Someone who can't feel the difference in recoil in something like an 1851 Navy between 20 grains and 36 grains (an 80% increase) isn't paying attention. Difference in recoil doesn't mean it has to knock you over. Comparisons to a .38 special or .357 mag. are meaningless and of no value.

 

[doubleset]

20 grains and significant recoil, 45 grains and mild recoil. How come pistols differ in recoil like that?

I was going to try to explain this -- and the ways in which it's true and the ways in which it's not true. But I just can't really do that without a bunch of math and physics that most people won't want to read. It ultimately involves Newton's laws of motion, momentum, kinetic energy, and force. So I'm not going to go there. Suffice it to say that there is a relationship of recoil (under one or more interpretations of what that is) to the size of the powder charge (actually the energy it produces), the weight of the gun, and the weight of the projectile. And that's a serious over-simplification.

But if you take the same pistol and fire it first with a 20 grain charge and next with a 45 grain charge (and the same bullet), the second will have more recoil -- no matter who shoots it or who feels it.

Shoot a .410 shotshell out of a shotgun and the recoil isn't very impressive. Take the identical type of shotshell and fire it out of a derringer, and you may wish you hadn't. I know. My son used to have one of those derringers.

 

[stephenprops1]

20 grains and significant recoil, 45 grains and mild recoil. How come pistols differ in recoil like that? Is it only a matter of the weight of the gun? What’s the weight of your guns?

I don't know the weight. It is not a heavy gun. Thus, perceived recoil is greater than with a heavier gun.

 

[Khufu]

But if you take the same pistol and fire it first with a 20 grain charge and next with a 45 grain charge (and the same bullet), the second will have more recoil -- no matter who shoots it or who feels it.

fortunately simple works in this instance because of the design of the single shot pistol, no heavy moving parts flying around as in a semi auto
and so the recoil impulse will be directly proportional muzzle energy since the pistols are the same. compare a 22 lr to a 22 mag, the mag has nearly twice the muzzle energy, but 2 times very light recoil is still light recoil, and barely perceivable to the shooter. if the smoke cloud wasn't so thick, the sights at 45 grains would stay on target. these pistols have just under a 6" barrel, so 45 gr is right about the point where more powder = same velocity
and has enough velocity to still be useful at 50 yards. the weight on these pistols is right around 40 ozs, or right around the same weight as a 1911, definitely enough to slow the recoil impulse down. many new shooters mistake noise for recoil a big boom and smoke cloud and they are startled. my daughter when she was 7 fired that gun and as soon as she realized the noise and smoke were not going to hurt her, liked shooting it. she did have to rest it on a sandbag as it was too heavy for her. her only complaint was the black soot she got on her hands.

 

[cal.45]

look at the pictures, they are identical, same barrels, same weight, though I have never shot a load as light as 20 gr, 30 is a VERY light load, it chronographed at 500 fps +/- and 45 grains runs almost to 800. the recoil of a 133 gr ball moving under 800 fps is way lighter than a 38 special
all my revolvers that are non dragoons recoil like a 22 lr. a single shot with a little more barrel can burn a little more and actually use it and get some decent results, but even 54 cal pistols with 10" barrels loaded up with 60 gr don't recoil as bad as a 357 mag. So a 45 cal with 20 gr is so anemic, you would probably be better off with a sling shot. I will load 20 grains next range trip and measure the velocity. probably around 300-350 fps remember a .440 ball is about 133 gr or so, a 38 spec used 125 to 160 gr bullets doing 850 fps or so no way 45 grains recoils as much as a 38, and that's pretty light. I guess some folks are VERY recoil sensitive.

Do you still have the Philadelphia Derringer? It would be interesting to see velocity numbers for different loads in the Philadelphia Derringer.

 

[pwbsmokey]

20 grains and significant recoil, 45 grains and mild recoil. How come pistols differ in recoil like that? Is it only a matter of the weight of the gun? What’s the weight of your guns?

Recoil tolerance is subjective

 

[doubleset]

Recoil tolerance is subjective

But recoil is not.

 

[doubleset]

I don't know the weight. It is not a heavy gun. Thus, perceived recoil is greater than with a heavier gun.

And depending on how you define recoil, so is the actual recoil -- which is what we should expect because that's the recoil that's being perceived. And gun recoil is typically defined in terms of momentum. For those seriously interested: Gun Recoil, The Physics of Everyday Stuff.

 

[flntlokr]

I'd look for a Black Powder Loading Manual.....preferably and older one. BUT, I shoot my PA Derringers with only 15grns. of 3F.

Nonsense. That might be a way to start figuring out a suitable, accurate load for a long gun, but chances are, it won't be the optimim load, which will only be arrived at after shooting many rounds with different loads. You may find it challenging loading 45gr. into a revolver. A full load for those is enough powder to fill the chambers, leaving room to press in a ball deep enough to clear the end of the barrel. In my Ruger, i filled to about 1/4' less than full for a big bang and lots of smoke, and less than great accuracy. For target shooting I loaded 15 gr, and filled the remainder of the space with corn meal. Worked for me. Be careful if you get down to very small powder charges, as it is possible to have a ball get stuck only part way out, and the shooter may not notice for various reasons. Big problem with the obstructed barrel if another round gets fired.